Issue Number 10 --- Rosh Chodesh Kislev, 5755
Compiled and Published by Kollel Menachem - Lubavitch (Melbourne, Australia)
in the zechus of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, o.b.m.
The present issue deals with the consecutive use of the same oven for dairy (milchig) and meat (fleishig) foods. Baking milchig and fleishig simultaneously in the same oven is not discussed here.
The Shulchon Oruch [1] rules that if a pan containing milchigs is placed under - although not touching - a pot containg fleishigs in the same oven, the steam from the pan rises and makes the fleishig pot and its contents prohibited.
The Remo [2] qualifies this halocho, saying that only if the steam from the milchig pan is "yad soiledes boi" (about 45 C), can it affect the fleishig pot. Furthermore, if the pan is covered, the pot would remain kosher. The Remo concludes, however, that one should not cook in this manner in the first instance.
The Pri Megodim [3] writes that the halocho of the Shulchon Oruch applies also when the steam rising from the milchig pot is not hot, so long as the pot above is hot enough to heat up the rising steam to "yad soiledes boi". The Pri Megodim adds, that this steam (which rose to, and became prohibited as a result of, the fleishig pot) in turn and descends into the milchig pan, which also becomes prohibited.
The Remo writes [4]: "If milchig and fleishig foods in open pots were successively cooked under one pan, the second pot becomes prohibited, if the pan above received and gave out the steam from both. This is because the pan is halachically considered as a 'lid of a pot,'" - and concerning the lid of a pot the Remo writes elsewhere [5]: "If a hot lid were taken from a hot pot containing meat and placed on a hot pot containing a milk food, both [the milchig pot and the lid] are prohibited."
From all the above, we can understand that it would not be permissible to use one oven even for the consecutive baking of milchig and fleishig foods. For when milchig food, for example, is cooked in the oven its steam is absorbed in the oven roof (or walls), and then, when a fleishig food is baked, its steam rises, extracts the absorbed milchig steam (in the roof) and then descends into the fleishig food. (And even though the steam may not be at the temperature of "yad soiledes boi", nevertheless, the roof is hot enough to heat up the vapour, as mentioned earlier from the Pri Megodim.)
There is, moreover, the fear - in succesive baking of milchigs and fleishigs - that some of the milk might spill over onto the floor (or rack) of the oven, upon which the pots sit. If, therefore, the milchig food is visible on the oven floor, one may definitely not place a fleishig pot on it - even if it is cold.
For, as the Shach explains [6], if milk spills near a fire and becomes hot, a fleishig pot - even cold - placed on it becomes prohibited, together with its contents. Moreover, even if the milchigs, spilled on the oven floor were absorbed in it, with no visible substance, - although a fleishig pot would not become prohibited through being placed upon it (since one pot cannot absorb from another other than via liquid) - it is not permissible in the first instance to do this.
(This is analogous to the halocho regarding two hot pots - milchig and fleishig - touching each other, that even though bidi'avad they are not prohibited, nevertheless, in the first place one may not do so).
(The reason for prohibiting this in the first instance is the worry that through doing this, one might come subsequently to place the food directly on the floor or rack, in which case the food previously absorbed in the rack would be drawn directly into the food presently placed upon it. Accordingly, this prohibition would not apply if it is an oven which is usually not used by placing food directly on the floor or rack.)
In light of the above, it would seem clear that there are two clear reasons for prohibiting use of the same oven for milchigs and fleishigs:
There are, however, circumstances in which the Poskim discuss leniencies. These are now discussed.
Reb Moshe Feinstein [7] discusses some leniencies suggested to him, in relation to this question, with regard to modern ovens. The first is where there is a great distance between the food and the roof (and walls) of the oven. In response to this, he replied that the steam is nevertheless heated up by the intense heat of the roof and walls (as mentioned earlier from the Pri Megodim). Nor would it be plausible to suggest that the steam would not even reach them. The second leniency suggested was that steam would not build up under the roof of the oven where there is an opening in the wall for ventilation.
Reb Moshe disagreed with this, for even were the oven to have only a roof, and no walls, we would still have the same problem (Reb Moshe proceeded to quote various Gemoros and halochos proving this).
Although one could here apply the well-known halachic principle of "nullification in sixty [times the amount]" - namely that the steam loses halachic significance when descending into a body of food sixty times greater than itself - nevertheless - it is prohibited, as clearly stated in Shulchon Oruch [8], to put oneself into this situation, and rely on this rule, in the first instance.
The Rosh [9] questions whether a boiling pot absorbs steam from elsewhere. He reasons that perhaps its intense heat would not let it absorb, although he does not come to a conclusive ruling. We might be able to apply this to our case, and suggest that due to its intense heat the oven top and sides will not absorb steam.
However, the Poskim [10] have disregarded this doubt of the Rosh. In fact, as mentioned above, the Pri Megodim (and others) are stringent even where the steam is not "yad soiledes boi" but the roof of the oven is hot (see above).
Rabbi Shlomo Kluger [11] writes that there is no halachic problem with cooking milk and meat in the same oven. For when the Remo [12] ruled that steam from a milchig pan can prohibit a fleishig pot above it, this is because the upper pot receiving the milchig steam became fleishig directly from food. In our case, however, where only steam (of the milchig food) was absorbed in the roof of the oven, and was subsequently extracted through (fleishig) steam, the original (milchig) steam loses its potency, and the pot in the oven would not be prohibited. However, most Poskim have rejected this reasoning, since it seems to contradict the above- mentioned principle of the 'lid of a pot': that taking a hot lid from a hot fleishig pot and placing it on a hot milchig pot prohibits the milchig pot and the lid. From this halocho we see that even absorbed steam (from the first pot into the lid) extracted by steam (from the second pot) has the power to make prohibited something else. [13]
The Beis Ya'akov [14] writes that although the halocho is that the steam from a milchig pan does prohibit the fleishig pot above it, nevertheless, this steam will not descent back onto the pan. The same applies to our case: the steam can not do any harm, since it will not descend.
The Minchas Yitzchok [15] refutes this by reference to the ruling of the Remo: that if one cooked milchigs and then fleishigs (or vice versa) under the same pan (see above) the second pot of food is prohibited. The reason for this must be because the steam does descend. (Perhaps we can add that the steam absorbed in the roof will condense and the resulting drops of liquid will definitely fall down.)
The Pri Megodim [16] quotes the Rambam [17] and others who state that the principle that steam from a food has the same rule as the food itself, applies only to steam emanating from a liquid. It does not apply, however, to the steam of solids. According to this, the Pri Megodim continues, if one cooked non-kosher solids beneath something kosher, perhaps it would remain kosher.
From the Tur [18], however, it would seem that this is not the ruling in halocho. The Tur writes: "An iron lid which is [usually] place over pancakes which are baking, must be kashered [for Pesach], because it usually touches the pancake itself, and furthermore, the pancake gives off steam." This is also the opinion followed by many Poskim. [19]
The Minchas Ya'akov [20] rules, that only with regard to a utensil which absorbed steam from repeated uses of solid foods, would the steam it absorbed acquire the same rule as the food itself.
The She'eilas Ya'avetz [21] maintains that cooking milchigs and fleishigs consecutively be considered kashered.
The Chelkas Ya'akov [22] writes that one can surely not rely on this reasoning. If the preheating was only in order to bake, it is definitely not sufficient. Even if one preheated the oven with the intention of kashering it, we still should not rely on it, because we can not assume that before every use the oven is kashered to the required heat. He adds that one can clearly see that ovens are normally still dirty from food remnants, oily substances, etc. even after heating up before each use. Given this, the kashering will not be valid.
Similarly, Reb Moshe Feinstein [23] says that the walls and roof do not become hot enough to burn up the substance deposited on them by the steam and vapour.
A few more leniencies mentioned in the Poskim are as follows:
We shall now mention various practical rulings of the Poskim regarding this question. It is self understood that no one may apply any of the following rulings in practice, especially if one has not studied the original ruling and that any questions should be directed to a competent Rabbi.
The Maharsham [27] writes that in the first instance one may definitely not use the same oven for both milchigs and fleishigs. However, once it was done, we can permit the food cooked therein, on the basis of those Poskim who permit it. He stresses again, that this is only bidi'avad, and that he tried to find a heteir only because he saw so many people doing it.
The Chelkas Ya'akov [28] maintains that the only time one may be lenient is once a year, eg to cook milchigs in a fleishig oven for Shovuos, and to heat up the oven sufficiantly for the purpose of kashering before and after the milchig use.
The Yaskil Avdi [29] states that according to the basic letter of the law, there is nothing wrong with cooking milchig after (or before) fleishig. However, it is much better to wait after the first use until the original heat has completely subsided, and then to reheat the oven to a high temperature before the subsequent use.
Reb Moshe Feinstein [30] in his responsa writes that it is forbidden to cook one after the other even after a long wait. However, bidi'avad, if one was cooked 24 hours after the other, the food is permitted. This, moreover, is said only concerning moist foods. However, with regard to dry foods one may in the first instance, rely on the Pri Megodim (that solids do not give off steam). Nevertheless, where one specifically saw that the dry food gave off steam, one should be strict. Even with moist foods, if the fire is on the top of the oven (as in a grill or broiler), it would be permissible, since the steam will surely be burnt up before reaching the roof or walls of the oven.
The Minchas Yitzchok [31] relies on the above-mentioned ruling of the Beis HaYoitzer to be lenient, although he states that it is meritorious to be more stringent. Therefore, one should have one oven for fleishig and one for milchig. Nevertheless, one who cannot afford this, may rely on the fact that the oven is heated up prior to each use. There should, however, be separate racks for fleishig, milchig and pareve.
[1] Yorah Deah 92:8
[2] ibid
[3] Yorah Deah 92; Mishbatzos Zohov 29
[4] Yorah Deah 108:1
[5] Yorah Deah 93:1
[6] Yorah Deah 92:32
[7] Yorah Deah Vol.1:40
[8] Yorah Deah 99:5
[9] Responsa Rule 20 Ch.36
[10] see Trumas Hadeshen Ch.103; Minchas Yitzchok Vol.5 Ch.20:11
[11] Responsa Tuv Ta'am V'daas 3rd Edition Vol.1:176
[12] loc. cit.
[13] see also Maharsham Vol.3:208
[14] Ch.57
[15] Vol.5 Ch.20:8
[16] see Pischei T'shuva Yorah Deah 92:6
[17] Laws of Tumas Ochlim Ch.7:5
[18] Orach Chayim 551
[19] see Responsa Shoel U'mashiv 5th Edition Ch.4
[20] Commentary on Toras Chatas Ch.22
[21] Vol.1:103
[22] Vol.2:136
[23] loc. cit.
[24] Vol.3:18
[25] Ch.20, 21
[26] Vol.7 Yorah Deah Ch.4
[27] Vol.3:208
[28] loc. cit.
[29] loc. cit.
[30] loc. cit.; see also Ch.59
[31] loc. cit.
The above is not intended to decide halachic questions, but rather to clarify them in a clear and concise form. Please refer all your practical questions to your local Rabbi.
Index of Practical Halacha Pages
Please note: Many hours of research is put into compiling "Issues in Practical Halacha" and we request that you do not reproduce them in any magazine, journal, newspaper or the like. If you wish to reproduce any issue please contact us.
Information on joining the Practical Halacha mail list may be found here.
The original hard copy and softcopy of this publication was produced on computer equipment purchased with a grant made possible by the Belfer family.
İMelbourn Kollel Menachem, June 2000
Melbourne Kollel Menachem
92 Hotham Street, East St Kilda, Vic., 3183 Australia
Havienu L'Shalom is pleased to host these Practical Halacha Web pages.
If you would like to support our efforts with a tax deductible donation, please send e-mail to:
İPage Layout and Design Havienu L'Shalom, June 2000