Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > General > Modesty - Tznius

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 01-08-2009, 04:43 PM   #26
mcp
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 436
Quote:
And I personally recommend that you get some therapy to help you stop seeing men as animals.
You must be confusing me with the others on this thread who see men as animals who just follow wherever their hormones lead them.

In contrast, I see men as capable and intelligent individuals with adequate self control. That's why most men I know don't need to stay home so as not to sin or bump into telephone poles. Most men I know also don't lash out on forums about the evils of female temptresses. They go about their daily lives and are polite and appropriate to women regardless of whether they left their burka at home today or not.
mcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-08-2009, 05:22 PM   #27
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp View Post
In contrast, I see men as capable and intelligent individuals with adequate self control. That's why most men I know don't need to stay home so as not to sin or bump into telephone poles. Most men I know also don't lash out on forums about the evils of female temptresses. They go about their daily lives and are polite and appropriate to women regardless of whether they left their burka at home today or not.
how do you know?

we are talking here,that maybe for 1 second a man can,cv ,have an hirur aveiro!
who is going to tell you that they had it?
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-09-2009, 08:34 AM   #28
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
By Major:


It is almost impossible today for a man to look at a woman who's not tznius without having improper thoughts!
look post #24
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-10-2009, 09:27 PM   #29
constantavodah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
instead of telling the other gender what to do why dont we each take care of our own sides.
women: dont tell men to wear blinfolds
men: dont imply that women should wear tents.

and if you have a big yetzer horah dont use that as an excuse and say that women shouldnt go out. if you have a big yetzer horah, fine! granted! But its not an excuse and never has been, we all need to work on overcoming our yetzer horas.

Its true that we have tznius issues and noone will deny that, but what we have todo me included! is work on our repective genders responsibilities. instead of saying women should dress tznius cuz they make me have big taavos or men should stay in their houses, lets first make sure that we are dressed tznius or arent flirting with the girls etc...
constantavodah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-10-2009, 10:45 PM   #30
Joey
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 71
100% constantavodah. However it's the woman that follows the man who sinned through her to Gehenom. But I agree that we all have to do our part.
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-10-2009, 11:21 PM   #31
constantavodah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 64
Interesting, do you have a source for that?
constantavodah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-10-2009, 11:24 PM   #32
Joey
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 71
Tractate Sotah B2 - says that if a man sins with a zona "Malfafto (she follows him) Legehenom".
Joey is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 01:01 AM   #33
mcp
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 436
Not exactly the same thing... sinning with a zona indicates that she was just as an active participant as the man. Not someone whom you just passed by on the street and couldn't stop thinking about. No one sins through anyone else. Stop blaming other people for your own shortcomings.
mcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 11:51 AM   #34
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp View Post
Not exactly the same thing... sinning with a zona indicates that she was just as an active participant as the man. Not someone whom you just passed by on the street and couldn't stop thinking about. No one sins through anyone else. Stop blaming other people for your own shortcomings.
Everyone involved in this conversation is aware of the fact that the halachos of Tznius are related to the general mitzvah of lifne iver (don't place a stumbling block before a blind man).

MCP is also aware of this fact. However, since she hates Torah (r''l), we are not having a conversation betwen people who are interested in debating what the Torah law is. Rather, we are having a conversation with a person who hates Torah, and who hates Torah observant Jews.

Debating with such a person is a waste of time.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:08 PM   #35
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
Actually, in mcp's last post, I would tend to agree.

If you put all men in the category of an 'iveir', as we were all taught, then fine. But since when is he? Can men not control their actions? And if not, what happened to bechira chofshit?
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:28 PM   #36
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
Actually, in mcp's last post, I would tend to agree.

If you put all men in the category of an 'iveir', as we were all taught, then fine. But since when is he? Can men not control their actions? And if not, what happened to bechira chofshit?
look #27.,lifnei Iver applies
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:30 PM   #37
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
I never said it didn't. I am saying that men are not incapable of controlling themselves.

Re #27: Do you equate hirhur aveira with actually doing the aveira itself? (Regardless of what Tanya says- that hirhur aveira is worse.)
Oh- and there are those who will tell you, or who will make it obviously clear.
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:39 PM   #38
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
I never said it didn't. I am saying that men are not incapable of controlling themselves.

Re #27: Do you equate hirhur aveira with actually doing the aveira itself? (Regardless of what Tanya says- that hirhur aveira is worse.)
Oh- and there are those who will tell you, or who will make it obviously clear.
I am no equating
Hirur Aveira is also an issur
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:46 PM   #39
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
Ok.
Granted, but the fact is that you don't get punished for it like you do for the action.
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:50 PM   #40
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
you can not have edim with warning,etc
same thing with the maise
at least you have lifnei Iver
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 12:53 PM   #41
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
What? Can you explain what this has to do with eidim and azhara?
At least? Why at least?
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 01:02 PM   #42
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
you are talking about punisments

ok, Women are responsible for" lifnei Iver"

If then there is a maise, then, there are more issurim involved, it depends ON deatels
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 02:54 PM   #43
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
And men are responsible for controlling their thoughts and actions.
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 03:08 PM   #44
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
women too are responsible for lifnei Iver
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 03:09 PM   #45
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
And therefore....?
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 03:41 PM   #46
mcp
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Everyone involved in this conversation is aware of the fact that the halachos of Tznius are related to the general mitzvah of lifne iver (don't place a stumbling block before a blind man).

MCP is also aware of this fact. However, since she hates Torah (r''l), we are not having a conversation betwen people who are interested in debating what the Torah law is. Rather, we are having a conversation with a person who hates Torah, and who hates Torah observant Jews.

Debating with such a person is a waste of time.
Meshulam, I don't hate Torah. I've said this several times already. It does annoy me when people use religion to support their personal hateful ideologies, such as misogynism or racism. As an aside, it weakens your position when the only argument you can come up with is an ad hominem attack.

As for lifnei iver, if a specific woman knows that a specific man has particular difficulties in this area and davka tries to make him sin, that is lifnei iver. It is entirely different from a woman who wears something that you personally consider tight/short/inappropriate. To use the lifnei iver mashal, there is no obligation for us to continuously clean and monitor the streets so chas veshalom a blind person shouldn't stumble over something that the wind blew in from down the street. We just know that if there is a blind man, we must not place obstacles purposely before him. Women who wear less tznius clothing are not purposefully trying to make anyone sin, rather they wear the clothes for many other reasons. Therefore, lifnei iver should not apply to tznius, unless the behavior or clothing is provocative in the extreme.
mcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 03:46 PM   #47
Majorthinker
Executive Diamond Member
 
Majorthinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcp View Post
...unless the behavior or clothing is provocative in the extreme.
Which a lot of clothing happens to be. But da"l.
__________________
!חסידים איין משפחה
One big happy family!

הוי כתלמידיו של אהרן הכהן!
Majorthinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 03:55 PM   #48
ktonton
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
Tractate Sotah B2 - says that if a man sins with a zona "Malfafto (she follows him) Legehenom".
not even remotely the same, or even tangientialy related. men are perfectly capable of sinning without seeing a woman. (which means, perforce, the woman is not culpable, as per the regulation about carrying on shabbos.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Everyone involved in this conversation is aware of the fact that the halachos of Tznius are related to the general mitzvah of lifne iver (don't place a stumbling block before a blind man).

MCP is also aware of this fact. However, since she hates Torah (r''l), we are not having a conversation betwen people who are interested in debating what the Torah law is. Rather, we are having a conversation with a person who hates Torah, and who hates Torah observant Jews.

Debating with such a person is a waste of time.
Last I checked, torah places the obligation on men not to look in the first place.

additionaly, last I checked, we don't say that hashem puts you in a situation that you cannot control yourself, rather you always have self control. (unless this isn't true) doesn't insisting that this is a case of michshol denies that principle?
ktonton is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 08:44 PM   #49
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktonton View Post



additionaly, last I checked, we don't say that hashem puts you in a situation that you cannot control yourself, rather you always have self control. (unless this isn't true) doesn't insisting that this is a case of michshol denies that principle?
it doesn't .
lifnei Iver does not depends if the person who does the sin can control himself or not.

If a nazir is offered a cup of wine, and there is not another possibility for him to drink another cup of wine (without the help of the first person) and drink it (he can control himself),this is one example of lifnei Iver

The only valid point is that we have to satisfy the trei ivrei denahara
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-11-2009, 09:00 PM   #50
ktonton
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
it doesn't .
lifnei Iver does not depends if the person who does the sin can control himself or not.

If a nazir is offered a cup of wine, and there is not another possibility for him to drink another cup of wine (without the help of the first person) and drink it (he can control himself),this is one example of lifnei Iver

The only valid point is that we have to satisfy the trei ivrei denahara
except thats irrelevant. he's NOT going to do anything with this girl.

she's not offering him, simple as that.

there is no colorary to a "drink" here. she's not offering him beans.

she is simply there, and in the experience of most people I know, she would be as attractive for him to look at nomatter what she was wearing. (there being a reason why some poskim specify the face as being the only part of the body one may look at to decide if one wants to marry a girl.)

Last edited by ktonton; 01-13-2009 at 12:31 PM.
ktonton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Farbrengens-Todays focus? shliachman Farbrengen 11 06-23-2008 05:16 AM
Why do Farbrengens always focus on the Rebbe? chochma Farbrengen 74 05-09-2005 04:52 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com