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Unread 05-07-2008, 12:17 PM   #1
Intrigued
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Question Shimon Kefa and Yeshu Hanotzri

What's this I heard that the sages sent Shimon Kefa (Shimon ben Shetach) to the early xtians to change their religion so they wouldn't harm the Jews?

According to what someone told me (a Lubav) that Yeshu Hanotzri stole the name of Hashem to do miracles with it. Where can I find out more about this from kosher sources? Thx.
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Unread 05-07-2008, 01:01 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Intrigued View Post
What's this I heard that the sages sent Shimon Kefa (Shimon ben Shetach) to the early xtians to change their religion so they wouldn't harm the Jews?

According to what someone told me (a Lubav) that Yeshu Hanotzri stole the name of Hashem to do miracles with it. Where can I find out more about this from kosher sources? Thx.
Shimon or Shaul? As far as I learned it was Shaul who later becaome the infamous Paul......

Well when he walked on water he had Sheim Hashem written on a piece of paper and placed in his foot.

Have you read perek Hachelek in Sanhedrin but the uneditted version?
If you want to discuss this further let me know
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Unread 05-07-2008, 01:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by cholentpot View Post
Shimon or Shaul? As far as I learned it was Shaul who later becaome the infamous Paul......

Well when he walked on water he had Sheim Hashem written on a piece of paper and placed in his foot.

Have you read perek Hachelek in Sanhedrin but the uneditted version?
If you want to discuss this further let me know
Shimon Kefa = Peter

I've seen what it says in the unedited version of Sanhedrin, but I don't recall anything about the Shem Hashem, or some of the other things I was told (like he was using the Shem Hasehm to fly around and the chachamim threw mey raglayim on him).

Very interested in further dicussion.
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Unread 05-07-2008, 01:22 PM   #4
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Mishpacha magazine had this big article in their pseudo-academic insert a few years back.
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Unread 05-07-2008, 03:35 PM   #5
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According to what someone told me (a Lubav) that Yeshu Hanotzri stole the name of Hashem to do miracles with it. Where can I find out more about this from kosher sources? Thx.
AFAIK, no authentic sources that tell this exist. The story of stealing the Name of Hashem comes from medieval folkloric work called "Toldos Yeshu". As far as my hypothesis is concerned, he was a regular koifer who was hanged, and whose followers first made him into Mashiach figure; then, after breaking away from mainstream yiddishkeit and mixing with goyim, added the whole avoidah zarah/Greek philosophy twist. There is no particular reason to believe that perek hachelek of Gemara talks davka about him -- this is what X-ians thought in the Middle Ages (at least, it looked suspiciously so).

If you want more information, from scholarly point of view (but mixed with knowledge of Talmud and history), you should read Hyam Maccobi, a frum Jew who wrote about historical aspects of origins of X-ity, antisemitism in it, etc. (The Mythmaker, War in Judea etc.).
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Unread 05-07-2008, 04:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
AFAIK, no authentic sources that tell this exist. The story of stealing the Name of Hashem comes from medieval folkloric work called "Toldos Yeshu". As far as my hypothesis is concerned, he was a regular koifer who was hanged, and whose followers first made him into Mashiach figure; then, after breaking away from mainstream yiddishkeit and mixing with goyim, added the whole avoidah zarah/Greek philosophy twist. There is no particular reason to believe that perek hachelek of Gemara talks davka about him -- this is what X-ians thought in the Middle Ages (at least, it looked suspiciously so).
Your "hypothesis" notwithstanding the Rebbe mentions several times in sichos that this is indeed "oso ho'ish" that is being discussed in the gemara. In fact, the Rebbe draws a connection to R' Yehoshua ben Parachya's statements in Pirkei Avos with his experience handling Yeshu Hanotzri! (see this post)

R' Yitzchok Ginsburgh from Gal Einai mentions some of these inyonim involving Shimon Kefa in shiurim I've listened to.

Here are some other resources:
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/...t/shimon-2.htm
http://www.algemeiner.com/generic.asp?ID=957
http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2691
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Last edited by Yankel Nosson; 05-14-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 12:35 PM   #7
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I heared that he was a talmid of R' Shimon-ben-Shatach, and when R' Shimon went to Mitzrayim, Yeshu came with him, and learn't witchcraft, and later on, regular cat-out-of-the-hat stories were distorted into big "mofsim"

Last edited by Eltere Chossid; 04-14-2010 at 01:43 PM.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 12:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Eltere Chossid View Post
I heard that he was a talmid of R' Shimon-ben-Shatach, and when R' Shimon went to Mitzrayim, Yeshu came with him, and learn't witchcraft, and later on, regular cat-out-of-the-hat stories were distorted into big "mofsim"
I heard that Neil Armstrong made up the whole "moon landing" thing, and that 9-11 was orchestrated by the Illuminati.

Sources?
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Unread 04-14-2010, 01:38 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
I heard that Neil Armstrong made up the whole "moon landing" thing, and that 9-11 was orchestrated by the Illuminati.

Sources?
See Vidibarta Bam on Pirkei Avos, by Rabbi M. Bogomilsky.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 01:42 PM   #10
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Is it written there?
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Unread 04-14-2010, 01:42 PM   #11
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Sorry. The story that i mentioned above did not happen to Yeshu, but to Shmuel Keifa. Yeshu Hanotzri was a Talmid of R' Yehoshua ben Perachya.
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Unread 04-14-2010, 01:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahrele View Post
Is it written there?
The above story is mentioned in the new edition of Pirkei Avos by Y. Marcus. The identity and story of Yeshu is discussed in Vidibarta Bam. I mixed up two stories.
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Unread 04-15-2010, 04:30 PM   #13
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For an intro in English, see

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lect...g_Beth_Abraham

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lect...Toldot%20Yeshu
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Unread 04-15-2010, 05:02 PM   #14
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EC, please do us a favour and refrain from sharing anything more with us until you look in the source first.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 09:06 PM   #15
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"Kolmus" (a "scholarly" journal from MIshpacha magazine) wrote an article five years ago, regarding Shimon Kepha and who he was. The article discussed the common misconception that he wrote "Nishmas Kol Chai", and concluded that this Shimon is better known today as St. Peter (the first Pope).
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Unread 04-18-2010, 09:10 PM   #16
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Also it must be noted that Shimon Aka "Peter" argued with Shaul Aka Paul regarding if mitzvos were still applicable after J- died. Shimon and Paul were what we call today a frum (orthodox) Jew. However Peter maintained the belief that ******ians must remain frum while Paul dissented.
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