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Unread 02-18-2007, 10:51 PM   #1
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Stalin, Hu Ra, and Purim 5713 - lunar and solar dates coincide again this year

Purim 5713 (March 1953):

The Lubavitcher Rebbe tells a famous story at the Purim farbrengen:

In a town in Russia, an anti-Semitic candidate for office was making a speech. Afterwards, the peasants, who were very impressed, began shouting "Hurrah!" The far less impressed local Jews, knowing that "Hu Ra!" means "He Is Bad," begin shouting along with the shkooootzim. And the candidate died.

Meanwhile, in Moscow, 8 hours ahead of New York, it is already March 5, Shushan Purim. Joseph Stalin, the bloodthirsty tzoirer who killed 20 million of his people and made life miserable for Jews, either goes into the final stages of an illness or is poisoned. Stalin does not live out the day (and ******* and Haman, along with Amalek himself, were there to greet him when his putrid neshomo descended to the lowest level of Gehennom).

This year, Purim coincides with March 4 again. Teheran is 8 1/2 hours ahead of New York.

How about a million times "Hu Ra!" for the new Haman, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ShR"Y?
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Unread 02-18-2007, 10:54 PM   #2
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We are not the Rebbe, and Ahmadinejad is not Stalin.
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Unread 02-18-2007, 11:00 PM   #3
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Ahmadinejad hasn't had the opportunity to become Stalin yet. His plans are similar to those of his long ago predecessor Haman YMS except that he wants to wipe Israel off the map and not harm the Jews in Iran. Depending on who you believe, Russia may just give him that opportunity (I doubt it but I won't get into my reasons as to why).

Nothing wrong with some wishful thinking - the world will be a better place without Ahmadinejad. There are six skunks with beards and payess who apparently enjoyed hugging and kissing the repulsive little tzoirer YMS but I think the rest of us will not cry too much when he peygers.
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Unread 02-18-2007, 11:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
We are not the Rebbe, and Ahmadinejad is not Stalin.
L'chayim at this virtual farbrebgen. True, we are not the Rebbe, but for sure he is Meshamas, and anyway Chassidim at a farbrengen can accomplish even more than the Malach Michoel.
But why stop at Ach-Mad-as a bat-inejad; HU-RA vehem HAPARSAIM HARASHIM- RA.(ROIM) HU RA, HU RA< HU RA!
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Unread 02-19-2007, 07:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
We are not the Rebbe, and Ahmadinejad is not Stalin.
The first half of the sentence is all that matters. even if he is a Haman, since when do we pretend to do rebbeshe zachn. It's part of the same "playing house" mentality that motivates the becher-fillers etc.

By the way, I didn't hear the first half of the Rebbe's story like that.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 08:40 AM   #6
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Not to quibble, but that year Purim came out March 1st...
Obviously some embellishment/fixing of the story took place, but at least get the dates right (and correct the title of this thread)!
[IIRC, they tell a similar story about some Rebbe in EY at the time].
I also don't get the premise of this thread: If saying a something a million times would help - why would the English date matter (even if it did coincide - which it doesn't)?

Last edited by Torah613; 02-19-2007 at 10:08 AM.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 11:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Not to quibble, but that year Purim came out March 1st...
Obviously some embellishment/fixing of the story took place, but at least get the dates right (and correct the title of this thread)!
[IIRC, they tell a similar story about some Rebbe in EY at the time].
I also don't get the premise of this thread: If saying a something a million times would help - why would the English date matter (even if it did coincide - which it doesn't)?
éàÈ âòÔòï, ðéùè âòÔòï - îòùÒä ùäéä
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Unread 02-19-2007, 11:36 AM   #8
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The recorded date of death for Stalin ymach shmo is March 5 1953. If that date did not coincide with Shushan Purim that year, it casts doubt upon the whole original story and the thread should be erased.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 12:36 PM   #9
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The recorded date of anything by the Soviet Union rarely coincided with reality.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 12:48 PM   #10
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The story as actually happened, B'Kitzur:

The Rebbe tells a story (before an unprecedented second Maamar) at the Purim Farbrengen, after Purim, of the Rebbe Rashab's Chossid who was fulfilling the order of the Rebbe to participate in local elections after the fall of the Czar. He went to Mikveh, put on a Gartel, and went to the hear the nominees speak. When he heard the crowd shout Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!, he shouted as well.

A few days afterwards, the Soviet Union announced that Stalin was taken ill. They then admitted that he had died. (The announcement of death was not made when he had actually died.)
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Unread 02-19-2007, 01:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Not to quibble, but that year Purim came out March 1st...
Obviously some embellishment/fixing of the story took place, but at least get the dates right (and correct the title of this thread)!
[IIRC, they tell a similar story about some Rebbe in EY at the time].
I also don't get the premise of this thread: If saying a something a million times would help - why would the English date matter (even if it did coincide - which it doesn't)?
Whether or not it the same solar date , it was Purim, and mgalgalin zchus al yom zackai.
The post USSR version of the story was that Stalin either had a stroke or was Poisened, and Beria, Kruschev and fellow travelers left him alone for a period of time, maybe a few days, without medical assistance, until he Stalin died.
Significantly, this was after he gave the order to round up Jews r"l, and take them to concentration camps a s a follow up to the so-called Docter's plot.
Ach- mad- plot-a- genecide-ajad has already announced his version of the doctor's plot.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 02:03 PM   #12
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As far as I am concerned, it does not matter if he died on Purim (which is doubtful, though we can sit here and theorize as much as we want), or a few days later. Obviously the Rebbe accomplished something. Why make assertions that cannot be proven?
My point is merely: 1) Embelleshments detract from, rather than enhance, a story. 2) The dates which were the premise of this whole thread, are wrong.
The "Rebbeshe" actions and connectiions to today's day and age, I will leave to magdiel.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 02:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
Whether or not it the same solar date , it was Purim, and mgalgalin zchus al yom zackai.
We don't know that, we only know it was around that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
The post USSR version of the story was that Stalin either had a stroke or was Poisened, and Beria, Kruschev and fellow travelers left him alone for a period of time, maybe a few days, without medical assistance, until he Stalin died.
Where is this published and researched?
Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
Significantly, this was after he gave the order to round up Jews r"l, and take them to concentration camps a s a follow up to the so-called Docter's plot.
The Doctor's plot was still ongoing, there were rumours - not orders - of deportation to Azerbejan (or however it is spelled), not concentration camps.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 05:50 PM   #14
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B"H

Part of a sicha from the Rebbe:
Quote:
...This is achieved by that stated earlier (33:27): “He shall drive the enemy before you and say ‘destroy,’” and even more, “Your enemies shall come cringing to you.” This symbolizes two forms of relationships between Jews and the nations: First “He shall drive the enemy before you, and say ‘destroy’“1destroy” — the banishment of evil. This is done through speech alone, through threats (“say ‘destroy’”), which will suffice to drive the enemy away (for Jews do not actually “destroy”). Then follows “Your enemies shall come cringing to you,” which is the transformation of the enemy into a friend and asset; war will be unnecessary ...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...lish/18/13.htm
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Unread 02-19-2007, 09:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
We don't know that, we only know it was around that time.

Where is this published and researched?
It just hit me: From the fact itself that the sicha etc. was said on Purim, is itself proof that it happened on Purim. When then?
Who needs research?
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Unread 02-19-2007, 10:37 PM   #16
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A fine Purim Torah.
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Unread 02-20-2007, 09:24 AM   #17
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True. But unfortunately, reality by some...
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul View Post
We don't know that, we only know it was around that time.

Where is this published and researched?

The Doctor's plot was still ongoing, there were rumours - not orders - of deportation to Azerbejan (or however it is spelled), not concentration camps.
" 13.1.1953: The "Doctors’ Plot" Rattles Moscow







Medical professors at the government hospital in the Kremlin were accused of "shortening the lives of active public personalities in the Soviet Union by means of improper medical treatment and sabotage." This was the essence a report by the secret service organization KGB, explains Jutta Petersdorf, a historian at the Institute for Eastern European Studies at the Free University of Berlin.

"The doctors at the famous Kremlin Hospital were now suddenly made out to be enemies of the Soviet Republic and even of Stalin himself. There were several Russians among the doctors accused at the Kremlin Hospital, but the majority of them were Jews," Petersdorf says.

The Soviet leader Joseph Stalin hated Jews and the population had been riddled with latent anti-Semitism for centuries. So it wasn’t difficult for the General Secretary of the Communist Party to make use of this ancient prejudice for his own purposes.

"And the astonishing thing is, this campaign met with broad acceptance in the population, which is fascinating even though it was malicious manipulation. Just look at the press. There was an outcry of indignation that Jewish doctors were responsible for the murder of outstanding Soviet citizens from the entire Soviet Republic," according to Petersdorf.

Joseph Stalin unleashed the first wave of ethnic cleansing between 1936 and 1938. Tens of thousands fell into disfavor, among them many loyal party members. They were killed for supposed anti-Soviet activities or disappeared in prison camps - the infamous Gulags - in the most inhospitable regions of the Soviet Union.

A new wave of persecution began in 1948, just three years after the Allies’ victory over Nazi Germany. The Pravda headlines on January 13, 1953 are the result of a libel suit by a fellow doctor at the Kremlin Hospital, Lydia Timaschuk.

She claimed that her colleagues, who were later arrested, had purposely misinterpreted the results of medical tests on a political comrade of Stalin’s, which caused his death.

In order to incite popular anger, Kremlin leaders spread the rumor, which were quickly taken up by the Soviet press, that American and Jewish aid organizations were behind the “murders in white coats".

The doctors escaped the sham trial and execution on Red Square in Moscow at the last minute. Joseph Stalin died on March 5, 1953, just two months after the “spectacular” revelation of the supposed scandal.

The nightmare was finally over and the doctors were released.

Stalin’s henchmen were quick to hide the so-called "Jewish Statement", concocted before the tyrant’s death. It was to have been published on the front page of Pravda following the execution of the doctors. Jews were to be moved out of the Soviet industrial zones for their own protection and deported to concentration camps in Siberia or Kazakhstan to "perform useful work for the people and escape the understandable wrath brought upon them by the evil doings of the treacherous doctors," according to the statement. "




























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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:10 PM   #19
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March 5th would have been 19 adar, but see below about mARCH 1.

Last edited by magdiel; 02-20-2007 at 12:29 PM. Reason: MISTAKE AS TO YEAR
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:22 PM   #20
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From Wikipedia;"Some people think[citation needed] that the scenario of the "Doctors' plot" was reminiscent of the previous Stalin purges of the late 1930s, and the plan to deport the whole population based on its ethnicity resembled previous similar deportations. Accordingly, some argue[citation needed] that Stalin was preparing a USSR-wide pogrom, the "Second Holocaust", to finish what ****** had begun, but this time, the scheme was not completed because of Stalin's death on March 5, 1953.

Proponents of this version cite mainly the memoirs (sometimes only alleged) and late testimonies of contemporaries, including those by Andrei Sakharov, Anastas Mikoyan, Nikolay Bulganin, Yevgeny Tarle, Ilya Ehrenburg, and Veniamin Kaverin
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:27 PM   #21
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How Stalin's Rage Saved the Jews

By Larry Domnitch


The following story was leaked to the press at a time when the Soviets, frequently accused of anti-Semitism, sought to improve their image. In 1956, two accounts appeared. One in the London Times, the other in France Soir, one year later, a similar account appeared in the New York Times. These accounts depicted the events surrounding the last living moments of Soviet premier Joseph Stalin. There is no certainty regarding the accuracy of these accounts, but there is no evidence to the contrary.

At the end of February 1953, a meeting took place between leaders of the Soviet regime. There, Stalin revealed his plans for Soviet Jewry. No Mordechai or Esther was present, but Haman was there. At the meeting, Stalin's pent up fury reached a crescendo and exploded into an uncontrolled rage, which resulted in his death and perhaps the salvation of millions.

Not even ten years after the Nazi destruction of European Jewry, Josef Stalin was bent upon the same course. Decades of purges, executions, imprisonment's and exiles of tens of thousands of Soviet Jews had escalated during the early years of the Cold War into a full-scale attack upon Soviet Jewry. By early 1953, the media launched daily attacks against the Jews under the pretext of the infamous "Doctors plot" in which Jewish doctors were accused of planning to poison government officials. As a result of the accusations, numerous doctors and other Soviet Jews were incarcerated, and executed. As in Nazi Germany, and so many other nations throughout history, they were used as scapegoats for all of their nation's woes. Hounded by both the media and the police, the Jews of the Soviet Union, lived in terror. The driving force behind the terror was Stalin.

Stalin's onslaught against the Jews was not something random; there was a calculated purpose to his madness. At the time, rumors had already become widespread that he was planning to deport thousands of Jews to Biro Bidzhan (an alleged Jewish autonomous region) and Siberia. A broadcast on Voice of America stated, "Biro Bidzhan the 'Jewish autonomous republic' has been transformed into a concentration camp. A surreptitious tendency is observed to deport to Biro Bidzhan all Jews arrested. It is difficult to establish the number of camps in Biro Bidzhan. Suffice it to say that one of the camps along the Biro River there are five to six departments; each department is reckoned to have 200-300 slaves." Those rumors were soon the subject of a meeting between Stalin and his presidium.

Stalin pre-empted the meeting with the two-dozen leaders present by rehashing the usual accusations of "Zionist imperialist plots" and the "doctor's plot" and spoke of the need for collective deportation of the Jews to Central Asia and Biro Bidzhan. The implications were clear. A hushed silence followed the speech. Lazar Kaganovich, one of Stalin's loyal enforcers was the first to speak. He asked hesitantly, whether all Jews were to be deported. Stalin replied, "a certain section." Again there was silence.

Another presidium member, Vyacheslav Molotov, whose Jewish wife Paulina was exiled to the Kazakhastan wilderness a few years earlier, broke the silence and dared to object stating that the expulsion of Jews would have a negative impact on world opinion, while another longtime Politburo member, Anastas Ivanovich Mikoyan, shook his head in agreement. The unusual display of opposition continued. Kliment Yefremovich Voroshilov dared to defy the dictator. Just days earlier, four government agents arrived at his home to arrest his Jewish wife. More loyal to his wife than to the regime, Voroshilov, with gun in hand chased them away. In a dramatic gesture of defiance, he threw his party card on the table and resolutely stated that he no longer wanted to be a part of the Communist party. Enraged, Stalin bellowed in response that only he determined who remained within the party.

As Stalin's rage reached a crescendo, he collapsed on the floor suffering a massive stroke. As he lay stricken, no specialist arrived to help him. They were all executed and imprisoned during the "Doctor's plot." Fifteen to 20 minutes' later, doctors arrived. Stalin was brought to his private apartment where he lay gravely ill. Soviet party leaders surrounded him, many eagerly anticipating his imminent death and the end of his reign. In his final gesture, he pointed his finger towards those present at his bedside including his daughter suggesting their guilt or complicity in a conspiracy to kill him. Then he died.

Following Stalin's death, there was concern that his successors would be as evil or even worse. No one knew what to expect from the Soviets. Perhaps the next leader would blame the Jews for the Premier's death. An editorial from a contemporary Jewish periodical concluded its summation on Stalin's death; "The fate of Jews in the Red Empire hangs in the balance."

Stalin's death, which was announced on March 5, was actually cause for great relief. The purges almost immediately ended as did most of the media attacks against Jews and Israel. Soon, the surviving doctor's arrested were released. Soviet Jewry's struggles were far from over, but they were relieved of their greatest antagonist.

Stalin died as he was planning Jewry's destruction in the Soviet Union. The exact day of his death remains a mystery. Perhaps he died on Purim day (March 1) itself. But one thing could be said, in the safety of their private confines, Soviet Jews celebrated Purim marking the salvation of Jewry in ancient times and in their own as well.
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:31 PM   #22
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March 5= it was Shushan Purim
Hmmm. If March 1 (Sunday) was Purim, how is March 5 Shushan Purim? úé÷å.
Now I see the correction, fine.
After all the articles, the fact that he may have died on Purim is nothing more than speculation. As I wrote, I really do not see what difference it makes.
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:37 PM   #23
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From Answers.com "Days after Stalin's death, Beria freed all the arrested doctors, announced that the entire matter was fabricated, and indeed arrested the MGB functionaries directly involved. The anticipated deportation of Jews never took place. It is a fact that the night of February 28 / March 1 1953, when Stalin collapsed, and after which he never regained consciousness, fell out on the Jewish holiday of Purim, celebrating the redemption of the Jews from a genocidal decree some four centuries before the Common Era.


After Stalin
Stalin died on March 5 1953, four days after collapsing during the night following a dinner with Beria and other Soviet leaders. The political memoirs of Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov, published in 1993, claim that Beria boasted to Molotov that he had poisoned Stalin. The story about murder of Stalin by Beria associates was elaborated by Russian writer and historian Edvard Radzinsky in his book Stalin: The First In-Depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents From Russia's Secret Archives, based on interviews of a former Stalin's body guard, published memories, and other data. There is also evidence[citation needed] that for many hours after Stalin was found unconscious, he was denied medical help. It is possible that all the Soviet leaders agreed to allow Stalin, whom they all feared, to die.
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Unread 02-20-2007, 12:42 PM   #24
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if we are bringing in theories (how it shtims with Domnitch's story - veis ich nit... but at least you have a reference here to March 1, though it is referring to Purim night - Motzei Shabbos, and not Sunday night when the farbrengen took place ... This is thanks to a Google search for 'Stalin death", there is more there for anyone interested):

The mystery of Stalin's death
By Leonida Krushelnycky


Fifty years ago, on 5 March 1953, the Soviet leader Josef Stalin died.

His political life as a dictator who dominated millions has been minutely dissected over the decades.

But his last days continue to provoke speculation and argument.

Did he die of natural causes following a brain haemorrhage or was Stalin killed because he was about to plunge the Soviet Union into a war its people were in no position to fight?

Unusual order

The night of 28 February began in the usual manner for Stalin and his closest political circle, Lavrenty Beria, Nikita Khrushchev, Nikolai Bulganin and Georgi Malenkov.


We were glad when we got this order, and went off to bed without thinking twice
Pyotr Lozgachev
guard on duty

They watched a film in the Kremlin then retired to Stalin's country home, 10 minutes outside Moscow, for yet another night of feasting.
By the early hours of 1 March, Stalin's guests had gone back to their homes in Moscow.

What happened next was out of the ordinary for a man as obsessed with security as Stalin. He gave an order for his guards to retire for the night - he was not to be disturbed.

This change to Stalin's normal behaviour intrigued Russian historian Edvard Radzinski, and a few years ago he tracked down one of the guards on duty that night, Pyotr Lozgachev.

Guards worried

It was Lozgachev's testimony of that night that led Radzinski to speculate about what might really have happened.


The guards slept late the following morning, and so, it seemed, did Stalin - 12 o'clock, one, two o'clock came and no Stalin


The guard confirmed that it was not Stalin who gave the guards the order to go to bed, rather the order was conveyed by the main guard Khrustalev.
"Stalin would taunt the guards by saying 'Want to go to bed?' and stare into our eyes," Lozgachev said. "As if we'd dare! So of course we were glad when we got this order, and went off to bed without thinking twice."

The guards slept late the following morning, and so, it seemed, did Stalin. Twelve o'clock, one, two o'clock came and no Stalin.

The guards began to get worried, but no one dared to go into his rooms. They had no right to disturb Stalin unless invited into his presence personally.

At 6.30 a light came on in Stalin's rooms, and the guards relaxed a little. But by the time 10 o'clock had chimed they were petrified. Lozgachev was finally sent in to check on Stalin.

"I hurried up to him and said 'Comrade Stalin, what's wrong?' He'd, you know, wet himself while he was lying there. He made some incoherent noise, like "Dz dz". His pocketwatch and copy of Pravda were lying on the floor. The watch showed 6.30. That's when it must have happened to him."

'World War III'

The guards rushed to call Stalin's drinking companions, the Politburo. It was their tardiness in responding and calling for medical help that put questions of doubt in Radzinski's mind.


Did they already know too much and so did not need to hurry to the "old man's" side?
Mr Radzinski says Yes. He asserts that Stalin was injected with poison by the guard Khrustalev, under the orders of his master, KGB chief Lavrenty Beria. And what was the reason Stalin was killed?

"All the people who surrounded Stalin understood that Stalin wanted war - the future World War III - and he decided to prepare the country for this war," Mr Radzinski says.

"He said: we have the opportunity to create a communist Europe but we have to hurry. But Beria, Khrushchev, Malenkov and every normal person understood it was terrible to begin a war against America because the country [Russia] had no economy.

"It wasn't a poor but a super-poor country which was destroyed by the German invasion, a country which had no resources but only nuclear weapons.


"It was the reason for his anti-Semitic campaign, it was a provocation. He wanted an answer from America. And Beria knew Stalin had planned on 5 March to begin the deportation of Jewish people from Moscow."
As always in Russia, conspiracy piles on conspiracy. Some saw buses parked all round Moscow to take away the Jews. Others glimpsed special barns erected for the deportees in Kazakhstan.

But while the drama unfolded over the next few days in Stalin's country house, the citizens of the Soviet Union were split in their reaction to the imminent death of their leader.

Many openly wept for the man they called '"Father", "Teacher", "God". Others in prison camps across the land allowed themselves to exchange secret smiles and hope that things would be different now.

At 9.50pm on 5 March Stalin died. By the next day his body was lying in state in the Hall of Columns, a few streets from Red Square. It is estimated that several millions came to see him one final time. Several hundred were rumoured to have died in the crush.

Fifty years on, the rumours of intrigues and conspiracies continue. For a tyrant like Josef Stalin, a simple death would be just too mundane.

The documentary The Last Mystery of Stalin - BBC Radio 4 on Monday, 24 February, 2000 GMT - charts the politics and emotions of a turbulent and truly significant week in Soviet history, through personal recollections and dramatic re-creations.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/2793501.stm

Published: 2003/02/24 12:54:58 GMT

© BBC MMVII
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Unread 02-20-2007, 01:51 PM   #25
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T613; according to the BBC story, he was alive at 10 PM (3 PM in New York?) so maybe the Rebbe helped him along (assuming this is an accurate version of events).
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