Jewish Pride

[searching4truth]

B"H
I find that because of the concept that a Jew must think - "for me the world was created," that many Yiddin go about their lives thinking they are above or better than a non-Jew. If in Chassidus it says that the beginning is linked with the end, meaning to say that the Higher the source is the lower it falls, than although it is perceived through the eyes of a human that non-jewish people are on a lower level than that of the Jews and if this is the case, in our physical world, wouldn't one say they are essentially higher?
Kind of makes one think about where their pride is coming from.

[The Eighth King]

Your calculation is off.

[noahidelaws]

Obviously, but he wants you to explain why.

[chasidus]

Do you feel better and higher then a rock?

1.) There is an element of pride based on your standing in this world that your are higher then them even if they may bihelem have a higher scorce.

2.) The makor of the neshamah is even higher then the scource of a non-jew and therfore a jew is able to be mivarer the world, as is explained why in truth Yaakov had the right to the B'ichoirus being that he was truly the b'chor being that the makor of the nishomah is in Atzmus.

3.) Even if a jew had no maalos there is still pride as we were chosen by Atzmus, ki banu bucharta mikol ho'amim.

4.) Your basic logic is flawed. Why do you say that a jew is bigaluy higher then a gentile, a jew could go much lower then a gentile, as is explained why a non-jew is not able to be mikabel tumah being that he has no shiachus to kedusha so in your own logic a jew is higher then a non-jew.

Just to mention a story of the Rebbe, there was a group of students that went into the Rebbe and they asked the Rebbe all there questions. One of the students asked why is it that the jewish people feel that they are better then the non-jew he complained that it is racsism and wrong......! The Rebbe responded did we make it up, it says ki vanu b'charta mikol ha'amim...!

[The Eighth King]

In order to arrive at his conclusion and negate his "Jewish pride" the poster first made an appeal to his Jewish pride itself and said that, "through the eyes of a human that non-jewish people are on a lower level than that of the Jews". This was the premise to his conclusion.

Prior to assuming that his conclusion is true, let the poster please demonstrate how and why he understands the premise to be true. Once he properly understands the premise, he will himself understand why his conclusion is erroneous.

[searching4truth]

My main point in the discussion which in truth I have not properly explaines is that, well firstly I wanted to hear other people opinions on the matter, but more importantly I wanted not to get to the bottom route. I wanted to point out this underlying feeling that a lot of Jewish people have that is far off from the essence of the purpose of the world. Many don't realize (and I apologize for pointing fingers at anyone) that everyone has their specific purpose in the world and that we have been chosen by Hashem to do our part and "they" being the Umos Haolam, to do their part. Let not everyone believe themselves to be better than another (at least their part has been fulfilled, thereby by the time they have completed their part the bittul they will possess will wipe away any feeling of superiority. My main point is that now a days, and I see this mostly with the youth, the "Jewish Pride" moto is being used on the wrong premis. I was not saying in any way that our essence isn't essentially greater. I really appreciate the responses. Thanx

[JewishHiphop]

Originally Posted by searching4truth

B"H
I find that because of the concept that a Jew must think - "for me the world was created," that many Yiddin go about their lives thinking they are above or better than a non-Jew. If in Chassidus it says that the beginning is linked with the end, meaning to say that the Higher the source is the lower it falls, than although it is perceived through the eyes of a human that non-jewish people are on a lower level than that of the Jews and if this is the case, in our physical world, wouldn't one say they are essentially higher?
Kind of makes one think about where their pride is coming from.

In the writings of the Kuzari and also of the Rebbe the Nation of Israel are compared to the heart and the nations to the body. The whole idea of defining one as being 'greater' or 'superior' does not seem to me to be necessary and could be counterproductive imho.

The main thing to know is that when all parts of the body fulfill their function well, then the whole body benefits - and then they are mutually complimentary.

Good question! Yashar koach s4t.

btw about that story about the Rebbe that someone brought in this thread - is it documented in a reliable published source? You know how it is, there are often rumors that circulate about the Rebbe that are not always 100%.

[chasidus]

Let not everyone believe themselves to be better than another

You seem to have a problem with one person being better then another, why?

Its true we all have our part, but we are better, higher, more essential etc'

btw about that story about the Rebbe that someone brought in this thread - is it documented in a reliable published source? You know how it is, there are often rumors that circulate about the Rebbe that are not always 100%.

The Yichidus is printed in english as it was a yechidus in english.....I also heard it from Moshe Feller who was there......

[chasidus]

Originally Posted by JewishHiphop

In the writings of the Kuzari and also of the Rebbe the Nation of Israel are compared to the heart and the nations to the body. The whole idea of defining one as being 'greater' or 'superior' does not seem to me to be necessary and could be counterproductive imho.

The main thing to know is that when all parts of the body fulfill their function well, then the whole body benefits - and then they are mutually complimentary.

using your allegory that we are all components of one body and we are the heart or brain and they other parts, the brain and heart are still superior, greater and more essential to the persons life than his foot etc' to the extant that you can cut off ones foot and live but your brain, your heart.....

[searching4truth]

B"H
I think JH understood the intent in what I was trying to bring out. Essential or non essential, I have seen to many bring about their pride in the wrong way, looking down at the other nations. Racism or prejusim comes about through one thinking that their race is superior to another. When the Torah tells us - "Viahavta Lirayach Kamoicha" most definately we refer this to loving another Jew, but it is also in reference to loving all of G-ds creations, including the Umos Haolam. I'm not trying to make this sound Hipi'ish or anything (and please pardon my spelling, the spellchecks not working) but really the whole world inorder to run correctly, relies on the unity and oneness of al its inhabitants. Essentially Yiddin have a "Cheilek Eloika Mima'al Mamash" but that doesn't mean we are better than anyone else. G-d chose is to have it and for that reason alone we are more dear per se, but to use that as Jewish Pride....Definately I owe thanks to Hashem for creating me Jew, for if I didn;t I would be denying that G-d would be doing the opposite of knowing what one is doing. Wish I could explain what I mean more clear.

[searching4truth]

Originally Posted by chasidus

using your allegory that we are all components of one body and we are the heart or brain and they other parts, the brain and heart are still superior, greater and more essential to the persons life than his foot etc' to the extant that you can cut off ones foot and live but your brain, your heart.....

Yes but what good is a thought process if it can't be carried out without a foot? And this is a complete digression from the point coming across. The brain is more essential to the body because that is the way Hashem made it not because the brain chose it or has to work hard to be a brain. Of course the brain needs to utilize its qualities otherwise what good is it and it would be a slap in the face to the Creator. But the brain has no reason to have real pride in itself over the foot for G-d chose the foot to be the foot as well. And maybe in essence and also physically the brain resides on a higher physical plain than that of the foot but only because thats the way G-d willed it to be. We are meant to be a light onto the nations, not standing on the light looking down at them.

[searching4truth]

Originally Posted by chasidus

You seem to have a problem with one person being better then another, why?

Its true we all have our part, but we are better, higher, more essential etc'

The Yichidus is printed in english as it was a yechidus in english.....I also heard it from Moshe Feller who was there......

More essential is important but think of it as a pyramid, each piece is essential. And even if the the most "essential" pieces are at the top of the pyramid and if they were to leave the whole thing would still stand, but then it woldn't be a complete pyramid. Each piece plays its part in the pyramid. One might be higher than the other, but Hashem made it to work together in Harmony.
My problem or more shall I say obstacle, is what resides in the heart of man and in a Jew in particular, with feelings of being better than another one of G-ds creation for another reason other than the fact that Hashem chose it to be that way.

[noahidelaws]

In Kol Ba'ei Olam, p. 204, he quotes a letter of the Rebbe, where it's asked: who is greater, chasidei umos ha'olam or poshei Yisroel. Answer: It depends on whether one looks at the potential or the actual. In potential, the poshei Yisroel are higher. In terms of their actual conduct, the chasidei umos ha'olam are higher.

[chasidus]

Originally Posted by noahidelaws

In Kol Ba'ei Olam, p. 204, he quotes a letter of the Rebbe, where it's asked: who is greater, chasidei umos ha'olam or poshei Yisroel. Answer: It depends on whether one looks at the potential or the actual. In potential, the poshei Yisroel are higher. In terms of their actual conduct, the chasidei umos ha'olam are higher.

Just to clarify the Rebbe explains the differece using the above allegory of a a heart that is sick r"l, or a healthy leg which has a maala over its fellow.

Personaly I would answer that after all that is said and done the heart is still greater for although it is a sick heart it is still the heart, the supplier of life to the whole of the body ,sick or not......

Then when you compare a sick leg to a healthy or even unhealthy heart then which one is greater....(they are only healthy when they are chasidei umas ha'oilam)

[noahidelaws]

I don't see how what I wrote is any different from what you wrote; they're just two ways of expressing the same concept.

[chasidus]

Originally Posted by noahidelaws

I don't see how what I wrote is any different from what you wrote; they're just two ways of expressing the same concept.

I was not arguing with you, I was just trying to bring the rest of the letter and try and clarify it a bit, before the moshel of body parts was used and therefor I wanted to continue on the same note.

For all who don't have the sefer kol bai oilam, the letter can be found in Likutei Sichos chelek va"v page 813

[noahidelaws]

Uh, there ain't no 813 pages in chelek vov. It's an incorrect reference, which is why I referred to Kol Baei Olam.

[The Eighth King]

Try page 318. (As well as I"K Vol. 18, p. 492)

[The Eighth King]

To add to all of the above: (Hisvaaduyos 5747 Vol.2, p.645)

[searching4truth]

B"H
WOW! I realy appreciate all the responses. Now based on the above, please share withe me your thoughts on this...When there is a war between Am Yisroel and another nation (such as the war we just had) is it fare to concern oneself not just with the welfare of a Jewish person but the "innocent" lives that are taken on both sides?

[noahidelaws]

It's only fair once the enemy is completely neutralised, and have surrendered.

[searching4truth]

B"H
You mean to say, that we shouldn't concern ourself with the welfare of the others who are caught in the middle??? Are all Arabs/Lebanese evil?

[noahidelaws]

Obviously no human blood shoud be spilled unnecessarily. I mean to say that if it's a choice between innocent Jews being murdered or enemy civilians, we must have mercy on our own first and not on the enemy at the expense of our own. Rather a million (that's just an expression, of course; it's not meant to limit it to that number) of theirs than harming a hair on the head of one of ours.

But in its operations in Lebanon the treasonous gov't excelled and excels at having mercy on the enemy, and cruelty to their own; what do you expect after such a crime as the Gush Katif expulsion. Aveira goreres aveira.

[searching4truth]

B"H

But in its operations in Lebanon the treasonous gov't excelled and excels at having mercy on the enemy, and cruelty to their own; what do you expect after such a crime as the Gush Katif expulsion. Aveira goreres aveira.[/quote]

I completely agree with you! How funny it is that they are so willing to help the "enemy" thereby forsaking their own. The problem lies in the fact that they are so dependant and are actually governed not by their own but the by outside forces. Until Israel will deal with the facts on their own terms and not on anyone elses we will continue to make sacraficial circles.

[JewishHiphop]

The whole idea of making comparisons and saying "I am better than you, since I am like a heart and you are like a brain or a lung etc." sounds to me like some kind of childish and foolish game, that children in the a Kindergarden may indulge in while teasing one another.

Maybe it would be beneficial for us to understand the distinction between Jewish pride and Jewish arrogance:

It is stated1 in Zohar III, p. 168a: “The Master of the Celestial Academy opened [his discourse and said], ‘He who [considers himself] insignificant is eminent; he who [considers himself] eminent is insignificant…. Behold: G-d exalts only the humble; He casts down only those who consider themselves exalted.’” This is in accord with the teaching of our Sages (Eruvin 13b): “He who humbles himself is lifted up by G-d; he who holds himself in high esteem, G-d casts him down.” [The Zohar continues:] “Meritorious is he that humbles himself in this world; how greatly exalted is he in that world [i.e., in the spiritual world to come].”
Herein lies the difference between the holy and the unholy: The holy is [always in a state of] nullification [of self, bittul] and unity [with others, while the unholy is always in an egotistical and discordant state. Concerning holy service] it is written,2 “And you shall love your fellow as yourself,” and the Alter Rebbe notes3 that to “love your fellow as yourself” is the vessel [through which one may come to fulfill the commandment],4 “And you shall love G-d your L-rd.” ...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=83696

The one expresses the glory of H', while the other is imho - a chillul H' (a profanation of G-d's Name)