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Unread 07-30-2005, 10:31 PM   #1
believer
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False moshiach

who was the person again that said they were moshiach and really weren't? i forget... shabtsai tzvi or something? what happened to him at the end? I heard there were more people that claimed they were moshiach and weren't. who were they?
How did they get people to think they were moshiach?
How would people believe them?
How long ago was that?
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Unread 07-30-2005, 10:41 PM   #2
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shabsai tzvi is one in teh end he was taken by arabs and given teh choice to convert or die..he chose conversion....not so true to his faith after all!!! i also heard that he was a paranoid schizophrenic.... anotehr oen was jacob frank..dont know much about him.. people were in hard times pogroms orwtvr so they needed soem hope!!!
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Unread 07-30-2005, 11:03 PM   #3
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Bar Kochvo?
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Unread 07-30-2005, 11:26 PM   #4
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Bar Kochva

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Bar Kochvo?
Quote:
מלחמת הכוכבים

חוקר מאוניברסיטת חיפה מציע סיבה נוספת לפרוץ מרד בר כוכבא: כוכב שביט שהופיע בשמים וסימל את הופעתו של המשיח

אלי אשד 26/5/2005

מה היתה הסיבה לפרוץ מרד בר כוכבא (תרגום ארמי של "בן הכוכב")? החוקרים מדברים על גזירות הקיסר אדריאנוס כנגד ברית המילה, על בנייתה של ירושלים מחדש כעיר אלילית ועל שאיפות לאומיות שנוצרו בידי דמותו הכריזמטית של שמעון בר כוכבא מנהיג המרד. אולם לאחרונה הציע החוקר הילל ניומן מהחוג לתולדות ישראל באוניברסיטת חיפה גורם נוסף ומשמעותי לפריצת המרד: הופעת כוכב שביט ענק.

הופעה של כוכבי שביט נחשבה בעיני בני תקופות קדומות לסימן ברור לכך שאירועים כבירים עומדים להתרחש..

גם יוסף בן מתתיהו מספר שלפני המרד הגדול הראשון ברומאים הופיעו בשמים שני כוכבי שביט שונים שנראו בעיני היהודים כאותות וכמופתים שמבשרים גאולה קרובה. מכאן מסיקים כי זה בדיוק מה שאירע גם לפני המרד השני כנגד הרומאים והפעם אף ביתר עוצמה.

מרשומות אסטרונומיות סיניות של התקופה (הסינים הקפידו להשאיר תצפיות אסטרונומיות מפורטות ביותר מימי קדם) עולה כי בינואר של שנת 132, סמוך מאוד לפריצת המרד, הופיע בשמי העולם כוכב שביט ענק.

במדרש במדבר כ"ד מסופר:"בראשונה היה כוכב עולה מן המזרח ובראשו חרב והיו ישראל רואין אותו ואומרין זה לזה: מהו זה? והיו אומות העולם שואלין לאסטגינין ( אסטרולוגים) שבהן ואומרין להם "מהו טיבו של כוכב זה? והיו אומרים להן: זה כוכבן של ישראל זה הוא המלך שעתיד לעמוד להן (...) וכן באחרונה עתיד כוכב לעלות מן המזרח והוא כוכבו של משיח שנאמר "דרך כוכב מיעקב".

נראה אם כן, כפי שמסורת זו מתארת, שכוכב שביט ענק אכן הופיע בשמי ארץ ישראל זמן קצר לפני פריצת מרד בר כוכבא ושימש כאישור למחשבותיהם של רבים לכך שימי המשיח הגיעו.

נראה שגם היהודים נתנו פירוש משיחי להופעת אותו כוכב שביט עצמו. בר כוכבא כידוע קיבל את שמו מידי רבי עקיבא שלקח את הפסוק מבמדבר כ"ד: "דרך כוכב מיעקב". האם התכוון רבי עקיבא מילולית ולא מטפורית לכוכב השביט שהופיע בשמים ונראה כמסמל את המשיח שמעון בר כוכבא? נראה שיהודים רבים ראו את הפסוק כמסמל כוכב אמיתי שאמור לבשר את בוא המשיח. ואם כך, ייתכן מאוד שהופעת הכוכב גרמה להתרגשות משיחית אצל היהודים ולבסוף לפריצת המרד שאולי לא היה פורץ אלמלא הופעתו שנראתה כמבשרת את בוא המשיח והגאולה.

גם ברבים מהמטבעות שטבעו מורדי בר כוכבא יש סימן מעל לבית המקדש, שיש הרואים בו סימן של כוכב ואולי זהו סמל לאותו כוכב שביט שהופיע בשמים.
http://ledavid.com/deot/viewtopic.php?t=324
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Unread 07-31-2005, 04:45 AM   #5
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I just read in a sicha today quoting a midrash that Bar Kochba used to daven to HaShem before war "HaShem don't help us and don't hurt us". This was meant to be indicitive of his over reliance on 'kochi veotzem yadi..."
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Unread 07-31-2005, 10:03 AM   #6
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There have been numerous false messiahs throughout Jewish history, especially when things were bad for the Jews and they needed something tangible to believe in.
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Unread 07-31-2005, 12:02 PM   #7
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all false religions capitalize on the poor welfare of potential followers - look what's happening with wahabism (the violent radical form of islam).

in industrious countries like turkey morocco and jordan there aren't as many extremists as there are in other countries such as saudi arabia and iran and syria.

it would be interesting for you to know how bar kochba's (AKA ben kuziba) life came to an end
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Unread 07-31-2005, 12:44 PM   #8
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Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs
BCE:
4 Judas, son of Hezekiah
4 Simon of Peraea
4 Athronges, the shepherd
CE:
6 Judas, the Galilean
28 John the Baptist
30 Jebus of Nazareth
36 The Samaritan prophet
44 King Herod Agrippa
45 Theudas
52-58 The Egyptian prophet
59 An anonymous prophet
66 Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean
67-70 John of Gischala
67 Vespasian
69-70 Simon bar Giora
73 Jonathan, the weaver
115 Lukuas
135 Shimon bar Kochba
440 Moses of Crete
643 The Syrian Messiah
720 Serenus
750 Abu Isa
800 Yudghan of Hamadan
9th cent. Mushka
1060 The Lyons Messiah
1100 Ibn Ayre
1120 Moshe al-Dar'l
1147 David Alroy
1192 The Yemenite Messiah
1291 Abraham Abulafia
1295 Nissim ben Abraham, Prophet of Avila
1361 Samuel Abulafia
1393 Moses Motarel
1495 Messiah of Beyhen
1500 Asher Lemlein
1523 David Reuveni
1525 Shlomo Molkho
1540 Ludovico Diaz, Messiah of Setubal
1575 Joseph Karo
1666 Syleiman Jamal
1676 Shabbatai Zevi
1690 Jacob Filosoft Querido
1706 Abraham Miguel Cardozo
1706 Mordechai ben CHayyim of Eisenstadt
1710 Yehuda Leib Prossnitz
1711 Yehoshuah Heshel Tzoref
1716 Chayim ben Shlomo
1720 Nechamiah Chaya Chayyun
1720 Baruchya Russo
1740 Berechiya Filosoff
1750 Jacob Frank
1790 Eva Frank (the wife of Jacob becomes the first lady Messiah)
1805 Reb Israel of Ruzhin
1820 Itzak Eizik of Komarno
1850 Shukr ben Salim Huhayl
1895 Yusuf Abdullah
1899-1985 Moses Guibbory

And here are some who were given that title posthumously by some of their followers, but may not have ever made such a claim:

1527 The AriZal, Issac Luria
1542 Rabbi Chayim Vital
1747 The Ramchal
1760 The Baal Shem Tov
1800 Rebbe Nachman of Bratzlov
1990 Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson
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Last edited by SpaceFalcon2001; 07-31-2005 at 11:44 PM. Reason: titles
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Unread 07-31-2005, 01:00 PM   #9
AhavasYisrael
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001
And here are some who were given that title posthumously by some of their followers, but may not have ever made such a claim:

1527 Issac Luria
1542 Chayim Vital
1747 The Ramchal
1760 The Baal Shem Tov
1800 Nachman of Bratzlov
1990 Menachem Mendel Shneerson
First of all, as a chassid of the Rebbe, I object to writing the Rebbe's name as well as any other Rebbe so disrespectively without any title of reverence.

[***] I just ask you to please do some research before you post.
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Last edited by Rabbi_D; 07-31-2005 at 01:16 PM. Reason: tangential and "controversial"
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Unread 07-31-2005, 01:27 PM   #10
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The above list very misleading, to say the least, as it mixes in names of individuals who Judaism categorically classify as False Messiahs (and worse), together with prominent, towering sages, whose holiness and sagacity inspired their disciples to think them as being worthy of being Mashiach.

Evil-doers in the first category led their followers astray, often with terrible consequences for the Jewish people, while the Tzaddikim in the second category (at the opposite side of the spectrum), fortified and nurtured the faith of the Jewish people, and bolstered their spiritual (and often physical) welfare.
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Unread 07-31-2005, 03:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AhavasYisrael
First of all, as a chassid of the Rebbe, I object to writing the Rebbe's name as well as any other Rebbe so disrespectively without any title of reverence.
Oops sorry. While I am not a chassid of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, I do have great respect for him and did not intend to remove any titles he has earned (nor disrespect any others). That was simply the list as it was compiled.
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Unread 07-31-2005, 03:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi_D
The above list very misleading, to say the least, as it mixes in names of individuals who Judaism categorically classify as False Messiahs (and worse), together with prominent, towering sages, whose holiness and sagacity inspired their disciples to think them as being worthy of being Mashiach.
Again, I apologize if the list is not properly catagorized, but the majority of the list comes from the book 50 Jewish Messiahs, which does go into detail on the situations of each one.
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Unread 07-31-2005, 06:22 PM   #13
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Eventhough you put the last few in a seperate category, which is great. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is his own category [...]
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Unread 07-31-2005, 10:16 PM   #14
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you missed one out

"1805 Israel of Ruzhin"
who was a great tzaddik.

spaceFalcon has said he isn't a lubavitcher chossid [...]
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Unread 07-31-2005, 10:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs
Are you saying those are all false messiahs or Jewish messiahs?
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Unread 07-31-2005, 11:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believer
Are you saying those are all false messiahs or Jewish messiahs?
I believe the point of the list is that they are 69 accredited Jewish messiahs, either by themselves or someone else.
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Unread 08-01-2005, 12:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
I believe the point of the list is that they are 69 accredited Jewish messiahs, either by themselves or someone else.
"Accredited Jewish messiahs"-what does this mean?

Secondly, what makes these sixty-nine people relevant? Just because they were Jewish, and someone claimed they were Moshiach? Who cares?
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Unread 08-01-2005, 01:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chabadnika
"Accredited Jewish messiahs"-what does this mean?
ac·cred·it
tr.v. ac·cred·it·ed, ac·cred·it·ing, ac·cred·its
  1. To ascribe or attribute to; credit with.
    1. To supply with credentials or authority; authorize.
    2. To appoint as an ambassador to a foreign government.

    1. To attest to and approve as meeting a prescribed standard.
    2. To recognize (an institution of learning) as maintaining those standards requisite for its graduates to gain admission to other reputable institutions of higher learning or to achieve credentials for professional practice.
  2. To believe.
In other words, each was credited with being the Moshaich, either by themselves, or someone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chabadnika
Secondly, what makes these sixty-nine people relevant? Just because they were Jewish, and someone claimed they were Moshiach? Who cares?
Apparently believer does as he asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by believer
I heard there were more people that claimed they were moshiach and weren't. who were they?... How long ago was that?
Please read the thread before posting.
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Unread 08-01-2005, 09:29 PM   #19
Chabadnika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
ac·cred·it
tr.v. ac·cred·it·ed, ac·cred·it·ing, ac·cred·its
  1. To ascribe or attribute to; credit with.
    1. To supply with credentials or authority; authorize.
    2. To appoint as an ambassador to a foreign government.

    1. To attest to and approve as meeting a prescribed standard.
    2. To recognize (an institution of learning) as maintaining those standards requisite for its graduates to gain admission to other reputable institutions of higher learning or to achieve credentials for professional practice.
  2. To believe.
In other words, each was credited with being the Moshaich, either by themselves, or someone else.
I'm not sure that this is the general usage of the word 'accredited'.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 11:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs

1575 Joseph Karo
Um, isint that another one of those "towering Jewish sages" who just happened to write abook called "Shulchan Orech"

Another thing, 1990 isint posthumous for the Rebbe, he didint pass away till '94. (And it started years before that . . .)
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Unread 09-15-2005, 02:22 AM   #21
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[quote=HoravDave]
he didint pass away till '94. QUOTE]
could everyone not write that? at least write the year or "the year we stopped seeing the Rebbe" It really drives many people crazy to see that because people have different beliefs.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 05:57 AM   #22
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Another thing, 1990 isint posthumous for the Rebbe, he didint pass away till '94. (And it started years before that . . .)
The problem would be that tzadikim do not pass away. A tzadik that is nistalek is nimtzah in this world yatir mi'b'chayoi, the proper word should be nistalek as I think everyone on this forum understands the word....
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Unread 09-15-2005, 09:13 AM   #23
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chasidus - a beautiful hergesh (?!) but wrong. In English we say "passed away". You need proof? Look at any kehos publication when they refer to the passing away of the FR. You need a specific reference? Take the English edition of Memoirs of the FR, and look at the English forward, where right after the the Rebbe's intro (from 5709) there is a short paragtaph from 5716.
But those were the days before the giluim of CT...
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Unread 09-15-2005, 11:08 AM   #24
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tell me though Torah, which do you say in normal day to day conversation?
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Unread 09-15-2005, 02:14 PM   #25
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"Passed away" is the proper English translation of the word "nistalek", since most of this blog is in English I posted "pass away", sorry if I offended anyone.
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