False moshiach - Jewish Forum & Discussions

believer · 07-30-2005, 10:31 PM

who was the person again that said they were moshiach and really weren't? i forget... shabtsai tzvi or something? what happened to him at the end? I heard there were more people that claimed they were moshiach and weren't. who were they?
How did they get people to think they were moshiach?
How would people believe them?
How long ago was that?

yellowflag · 07-30-2005, 10:41 PM

shabsai tzvi is one in teh end he was taken by arabs and given teh choice to convert or die..he chose conversion....not so true to his faith after all!!! i also heard that he was a paranoid schizophrenic.... anotehr oen was jacob frank..dont know much about him.. people were in hard times pogroms orwtvr so they needed soem hope!!!

Torah613 · 07-30-2005, 11:03 PM

Bar Kochvo?

Yankel Nosson · 07-30-2005, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torah613

Bar Kochvo?

Quote:

מלחמת הכוכבים

חוקר מאוניברסיטת חיפה מציע סיבה נוספת לפרוץ מרד בר כוכבא: כוכב שביט שהופיע בשמים וסימל את הופעתו של המשיח

אלי אשד 26/5/2005

מה היתה הסיבה לפרוץ מרד בר כוכבא (תרגום ארמי של "בן הכוכב")? החוקרים מדברים על גזירות הקיסר אדריאנוס כנגד ברית המילה, על בנייתה של ירושלים מחדש כעיר אלילית ועל שאיפות לאומיות שנוצרו בידי דמותו הכריזמטית של שמעון בר כוכבא מנהיג המרד. אולם לאחרונה הציע החוקר הילל ניומן מהחוג לתולדות ישראל באוניברסיטת חיפה גורם נוסף ומשמעותי לפריצת המרד: הופעת כוכב שביט ענק.

הופעה של כוכבי שביט נחשבה בעיני בני תקופות קדומות לסימן ברור לכך שאירועים כבירים עומדים להתרחש..

גם יוסף בן מתתיהו מספר שלפני המרד הגדול הראשון ברומאים הופיעו בשמים שני כוכבי שביט שונים שנראו בעיני היהודים כאותות וכמופתים שמבשרים גאולה קרובה. מכאן מסיקים כי זה בדיוק מה שאירע גם לפני המרד השני כנגד הרומאים והפעם אף ביתר עוצמה.

מרשומות אסטרונומיות סיניות של התקופה (הסינים הקפידו להשאיר תצפיות אסטרונומיות מפורטות ביותר מימי קדם) עולה כי בינואר של שנת 132, סמוך מאוד לפריצת המרד, הופיע בשמי העולם כוכב שביט ענק.

במדרש במדבר כ"ד מסופר:"בראשונה היה כוכב עולה מן המזרח ובראשו חרב והיו ישראל רואין אותו ואומרין זה לזה: מהו זה? והיו אומות העולם שואלין לאסטגינין ( אסטרולוגים) שבהן ואומרין להם "מהו טיבו של כוכב זה? והיו אומרים להן: זה כוכבן של ישראל זה הוא המלך שעתיד לעמוד להן (...) וכן באחרונה עתיד כוכב לעלות מן המזרח והוא כוכבו של משיח שנאמר "דרך כוכב מיעקב".

נראה אם כן, כפי שמסורת זו מתארת, שכוכב שביט ענק אכן הופיע בשמי ארץ ישראל זמן קצר לפני פריצת מרד בר כוכבא ושימש כאישור למחשבותיהם של רבים לכך שימי המשיח הגיעו.

נראה שגם היהודים נתנו פירוש משיחי להופעת אותו כוכב שביט עצמו. בר כוכבא כידוע קיבל את שמו מידי רבי עקיבא שלקח את הפסוק מבמדבר כ"ד: "דרך כוכב מיעקב". האם התכוון רבי עקיבא מילולית ולא מטפורית לכוכב השביט שהופיע בשמים ונראה כמסמל את המשיח שמעון בר כוכבא? נראה שיהודים רבים ראו את הפסוק כמסמל כוכב אמיתי שאמור לבשר את בוא המשיח. ואם כך, ייתכן מאוד שהופעת הכוכב גרמה להתרגשות משיחית אצל היהודים ולבסוף לפריצת המרד שאולי לא היה פורץ אלמלא הופעתו שנראתה כמבשרת את בוא המשיח והגאולה.

גם ברבים מהמטבעות שטבעו מורדי בר כוכבא יש סימן מעל לבית המקדש, שיש הרואים בו סימן של כוכב ואולי זהו סמל לאותו כוכב שביט שהופיע בשמים.

http://ledavid.com/deot/viewtopic.php?t=324

Shir Chadash · 07-31-2005, 04:45 AM

I just read in a sicha today quoting a midrash that Bar Kochba used to daven to HaShem before war "HaShem don't help us and don't hurt us". This was meant to be indicitive of his over reliance on 'kochi veotzem yadi..."

Chabadnika · 07-31-2005, 10:03 AM

There have been numerous false messiahs throughout Jewish history, especially when things were bad for the Jews and they needed something tangible to believe in.

Hiskashrus · 07-31-2005, 12:02 PM

all false religions capitalize on the poor welfare of potential followers - look what's happening with wahabism (the violent radical form of islam).

in industrious countries like turkey morocco and jordan there aren't as many extremists as there are in other countries such as saudi arabia and iran and syria.

it would be interesting for you to know how bar kochba's (AKA ben kuziba) life came to an end

SpaceFalcon2001 · 07-31-2005, 12:44 PM

Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs
BCE:
4 Judas, son of Hezekiah
4 Simon of Peraea
4 Athronges, the shepherd
CE:
6 Judas, the Galilean
28 John the Baptist
30 Jebus of Nazareth
36 The Samaritan prophet
44 King Herod Agrippa
45 Theudas
52-58 The Egyptian prophet
59 An anonymous prophet
66 Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean
67-70 John of Gischala
67 Vespasian
69-70 Simon bar Giora
73 Jonathan, the weaver
115 Lukuas
135 Shimon bar Kochba
440 Moses of Crete
643 The Syrian Messiah
720 Serenus
750 Abu Isa
800 Yudghan of Hamadan
9th cent. Mushka
1060 The Lyons Messiah
1100 Ibn Ayre
1120 Moshe al-Dar'l
1147 David Alroy
1192 The Yemenite Messiah
1291 Abraham Abulafia
1295 Nissim ben Abraham, Prophet of Avila
1361 Samuel Abulafia
1393 Moses Motarel
1495 Messiah of Beyhen
1500 Asher Lemlein
1523 David Reuveni
1525 Shlomo Molkho
1540 Ludovico Diaz, Messiah of Setubal
1575 Joseph Karo
1666 Syleiman Jamal
1676 Shabbatai Zevi
1690 Jacob Filosoft Querido
1706 Abraham Miguel Cardozo
1706 Mordechai ben CHayyim of Eisenstadt
1710 Yehuda Leib Prossnitz
1711 Yehoshuah Heshel Tzoref
1716 Chayim ben Shlomo
1720 Nechamiah Chaya Chayyun
1720 Baruchya Russo
1740 Berechiya Filosoff
1750 Jacob Frank
1790 Eva Frank (the wife of Jacob becomes the first lady Messiah)
1805 Reb Israel of Ruzhin
1820 Itzak Eizik of Komarno
1850 Shukr ben Salim Huhayl
1895 Yusuf Abdullah
1899-1985 Moses Guibbory

And here are some who were given that title posthumously by some of their followers, but may not have ever made such a claim:

1527 The AriZal, Issac Luria
1542 Rabbi Chayim Vital
1747 The Ramchal
1760 The Baal Shem Tov
1800 Rebbe Nachman of Bratzlov
1990 Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson

AhavasYisrael · 07-31-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceFalcon2001
And here are some who were given that title posthumously by some of their followers, but may not have ever made such a claim:

1527 Issac Luria
1542 Chayim Vital
1747 The Ramchal
1760 The Baal Shem Tov
1800 Nachman of Bratzlov
1990 Menachem Mendel Shneerson

First of all, as a chassid of the Rebbe, I object to writing the Rebbe's name as well as any other Rebbe so disrespectively without any title of reverence.

[***] I just ask you to please do some research before you post.

Rabbi_D · 07-31-2005, 01:27 PM

The above list very misleading, to say the least, as it mixes in names of individuals who Judaism categorically classify as False Messiahs (and worse), together with prominent, towering sages, whose holiness and sagacity inspired their disciples to think them as being worthy of being Mashiach.

Evil-doers in the first category led their followers astray, often with terrible consequences for the Jewish people, while the Tzaddikim in the second category (at the opposite side of the spectrum), fortified and nurtured the faith of the Jewish people, and bolstered their spiritual (and often physical) welfare.

SpaceFalcon2001 · 07-31-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhavasYisrael

First of all, as a chassid of the Rebbe, I object to writing the Rebbe's name as well as any other Rebbe so disrespectively without any title of reverence.

Oops sorry. While I am not a chassid of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, I do have great respect for him and did not intend to remove any titles he has earned (nor disrespect any others). That was simply the list as it was compiled.

SpaceFalcon2001 · 07-31-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbi_D

The above list very misleading, to say the least, as it mixes in names of individuals who Judaism categorically classify as False Messiahs (and worse), together with prominent, towering sages, whose holiness and sagacity inspired their disciples to think them as being worthy of being Mashiach.

Again, I apologize if the list is not properly catagorized, but the majority of the list comes from the book 50 Jewish Messiahs, which does go into detail on the situations of each one.

Aaronke · 07-31-2005, 06:22 PM

Eventhough you put the last few in a seperate category, which is great. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is his own category [...]

Hiskashrus · 07-31-2005, 10:16 PM

you missed one out

"1805 Israel of Ruzhin"
who was a great tzaddik.

spaceFalcon has said he isn't a lubavitcher chossid [...]

believer · 07-31-2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs

Are you saying those are all false messiahs or Jewish messiahs?

SpaceFalcon2001 · 07-31-2005, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by believer

Are you saying those are all false messiahs or Jewish messiahs?

I believe the point of the list is that they are 69 accredited Jewish messiahs, either by themselves or someone else.

Chabadnika · 08-01-2005, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

I believe the point of the list is that they are 69 accredited Jewish messiahs, either by themselves or someone else.

"Accredited Jewish messiahs"-what does this mean?

Secondly, what makes these sixty-nine people relevant? Just because they were Jewish, and someone claimed they were Moshiach? Who cares?

SpaceFalcon2001 · 08-01-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chabadnika

"Accredited Jewish messiahs"-what does this mean?

ac·cred·it
tr.v. ac·cred·it·ed, ac·cred·it·ing, ac·cred·its

To ascribe or attribute to; credit with.
1. To supply with credentials or authority; authorize.
2. To appoint as an ambassador to a foreign government.
1. To attest to and approve as meeting a prescribed standard.
2. To recognize (an institution of learning) as maintaining those standards requisite for its graduates to gain admission to other reputable institutions of higher learning or to achieve credentials for professional practice.
To believe.

In other words, each was credited with being the Moshaich, either by themselves, or someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chabadnika

Secondly, what makes these sixty-nine people relevant? Just because they were Jewish, and someone claimed they were Moshiach? Who cares?

Apparently believer does as he asked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by believer

I heard there were more people that claimed they were moshiach and weren't. who were they?... How long ago was that?

Please read the thread before posting.

Chabadnika · 08-01-2005, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

ac·cred·it
tr.v. ac·cred·it·ed, ac·cred·it·ing, ac·cred·its

To ascribe or attribute to; credit with.
1. To supply with credentials or authority; authorize.
2. To appoint as an ambassador to a foreign government.
1. To attest to and approve as meeting a prescribed standard.
2. To recognize (an institution of learning) as maintaining those standards requisite for its graduates to gain admission to other reputable institutions of higher learning or to achieve credentials for professional practice.
To believe.

In other words, each was credited with being the Moshaich, either by themselves, or someone else.

I'm not sure that this is the general usage of the word 'accredited'.

HoravDave · 09-14-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001

Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs

1575 Joseph Karo

Um, isint that another one of those "towering Jewish sages" who just happened to write abook called "Shulchan Orech"

Another thing, 1990 isint posthumous for the Rebbe, he didint pass away till '94. (And it started years before that . . .)

believer · 09-15-2005, 02:22 AM

[quote=HoravDave]
he didint pass away till '94. QUOTE]
could everyone not write that? at least write the year or "the year we stopped seeing the Rebbe" It really drives many people crazy to see that because people have different beliefs.

chasidus · 09-15-2005, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Another thing, 1990 isint posthumous for the Rebbe, he didint pass away till '94. (And it started years before that . . .)

The problem would be that tzadikim do not pass away. A tzadik that is nistalek is nimtzah in this world yatir mi'b'chayoi, the proper word should be nistalek as I think everyone on this forum understands the word....

Torah613 · 09-15-2005, 09:13 AM

chasidus - a beautiful hergesh (?!) but wrong. In English we say "passed away". You need proof? Look at any kehos publication when they refer to the passing away of the FR. You need a specific reference? Take the English edition of Memoirs of the FR, and look at the English forward, where right after the the Rebbe's intro (from 5709) there is a short paragtaph from 5716.
But those were the days before the giluim of CT...

mordechai7215 · 09-15-2005, 11:08 AM

tell me though Torah, which do you say in normal day to day conversation?

HoravDave · 09-15-2005, 02:14 PM

"Passed away" is the proper English translation of the word "nistalek", since most of this blog is in English I posted "pass away", sorry if I offended anyone.

07-30-2005, 10:31 PM	#1
believer Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 283	False moshiach who was the person again that said they were moshiach and really weren't? i forget... shabtsai tzvi or something? what happened to him at the end? I heard there were more people that claimed they were moshiach and weren't. who were they? How did they get people to think they were moshiach? How would people believe them? How long ago was that? __________________ is the me i see the me the Rebbe wants me to be?

07-31-2005, 12:44 PM	#8
SpaceFalcon2001 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 14	Here's a list of 69 Jewish messiahs BCE: 4 Judas, son of Hezekiah 4 Simon of Peraea 4 Athronges, the shepherd CE: 6 Judas, the Galilean 28 John the Baptist 30 Jebus of Nazareth 36 The Samaritan prophet 44 King Herod Agrippa 45 Theudas 52-58 The Egyptian prophet 59 An anonymous prophet 66 Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean 67-70 John of Gischala 67 Vespasian 69-70 Simon bar Giora 73 Jonathan, the weaver 115 Lukuas 135 Shimon bar Kochba 440 Moses of Crete 643 The Syrian Messiah 720 Serenus 750 Abu Isa 800 Yudghan of Hamadan 9th cent. Mushka 1060 The Lyons Messiah 1100 Ibn Ayre 1120 Moshe al-Dar'l 1147 David Alroy 1192 The Yemenite Messiah 1291 Abraham Abulafia 1295 Nissim ben Abraham, Prophet of Avila 1361 Samuel Abulafia 1393 Moses Motarel 1495 Messiah of Beyhen 1500 Asher Lemlein 1523 David Reuveni 1525 Shlomo Molkho 1540 Ludovico Diaz, Messiah of Setubal 1575 Joseph Karo 1666 Syleiman Jamal 1676 Shabbatai Zevi 1690 Jacob Filosoft Querido 1706 Abraham Miguel Cardozo 1706 Mordechai ben CHayyim of Eisenstadt 1710 Yehuda Leib Prossnitz 1711 Yehoshuah Heshel Tzoref 1716 Chayim ben Shlomo 1720 Nechamiah Chaya Chayyun 1720 Baruchya Russo 1740 Berechiya Filosoff 1750 Jacob Frank 1790 Eva Frank (the wife of Jacob becomes the first lady Messiah) 1805 Reb Israel of Ruzhin 1820 Itzak Eizik of Komarno 1850 Shukr ben Salim Huhayl 1895 Yusuf Abdullah 1899-1985 Moses Guibbory And here are some who were given that title posthumously by some of their followers, but may not have ever made such a claim: 1527 The AriZal, Issac Luria 1542 Rabbi Chayim Vital 1747 The Ramchal 1760 The Baal Shem Tov 1800 Rebbe Nachman of Bratzlov 1990 Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson __________________ מצוה גדלה להיות בשמח תמיד... כלב רפאל בו משה Last edited by SpaceFalcon2001; 07-31-2005 at 11:44 PM. Reason: titles

09-15-2005, 02:22 AM	#21
believer Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 283	[quote=HoravDave] he didint pass away till '94. QUOTE] could everyone not write that? at least write the year or "the year we stopped seeing the Rebbe" It really drives many people crazy to see that because people have different beliefs. __________________ is the me i see the me the Rebbe wants me to be?

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07-30-2005, 10:41 PM	#2
yellowflag Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8	shabsai tzvi is one in teh end he was taken by arabs and given teh choice to convert or die..he chose conversion....not so true to his faith after all!!! i also heard that he was a paranoid schizophrenic.... anotehr oen was jacob frank..dont know much about him.. people were in hard times pogroms orwtvr so they needed soem hope!!!

07-30-2005, 11:03 PM	#3
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	Bar Kochvo?

07-31-2005, 04:45 AM	#5
Shir Chadash Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 53	I just read in a sicha today quoting a midrash that Bar Kochba used to daven to HaShem before war "HaShem don't help us and don't hurt us". This was meant to be indicitive of his over reliance on 'kochi veotzem yadi..."

07-31-2005, 10:03 AM	#6
Chabadnika Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 619	There have been numerous false messiahs throughout Jewish history, especially when things were bad for the Jews and they needed something tangible to believe in.

07-31-2005, 12:02 PM	#7
Hiskashrus Diamond Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,450	all false religions capitalize on the poor welfare of potential followers - look what's happening with wahabism (the violent radical form of islam). in industrious countries like turkey morocco and jordan there aren't as many extremists as there are in other countries such as saudi arabia and iran and syria. it would be interesting for you to know how bar kochba's (AKA ben kuziba) life came to an end

07-31-2005, 01:27 PM	#10
Rabbi_D Super Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 470	The above list very misleading, to say the least, as it mixes in names of individuals who Judaism categorically classify as False Messiahs (and worse), together with prominent, towering sages, whose holiness and sagacity inspired their disciples to think them as being worthy of being Mashiach. Evil-doers in the first category led their followers astray, often with terrible consequences for the Jewish people, while the Tzaddikim in the second category (at the opposite side of the spectrum), fortified and nurtured the faith of the Jewish people, and bolstered their spiritual (and often physical) welfare.

07-31-2005, 06:22 PM	#13
Aaronke Silver Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 580	Eventhough you put the last few in a seperate category, which is great. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is his own category [...]

07-31-2005, 10:16 PM	#14
Hiskashrus Diamond Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,450	you missed one out "1805 Israel of Ruzhin" who was a great tzaddik. spaceFalcon has said he isn't a lubavitcher chossid [...]

09-15-2005, 09:13 AM	#23
Torah613 ChabadTalk.com Elder! Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 11,716	chasidus - a beautiful hergesh (?!) but wrong. In English we say "passed away". You need proof? Look at any kehos publication when they refer to the passing away of the FR. You need a specific reference? Take the English edition of Memoirs of the FR, and look at the English forward, where right after the the Rebbe's intro (from 5709) there is a short paragtaph from 5716. But those were the days before the giluim of CT...

09-15-2005, 11:08 AM	#24
mordechai7215 Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,136	tell me though Torah, which do you say in normal day to day conversation?

09-15-2005, 02:14 PM	#25
HoravDave Silver Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 730	"Passed away" is the proper English translation of the word "nistalek", since most of this blog is in English I posted "pass away", sorry if I offended anyone.

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