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Unread 08-29-2004, 08:41 AM   #1
Mahus
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Rogatchover Smicho

Maybe someone who is boki in Kfar Chabad magazine can point to the specific date. But I remember that in tof-shin-nun-ches a memoir was published of an aid to Rabbi Yosef Rosen, known as the Rogatchover Gaon.

One story was about the Rogatchover writing a letter to a government official to appeal to him regarding a certain matter, although I don't remember the details. What I do remember is that the author of the memoir recalls the Rogatchover turning to him at the completion of drafting of the letter and saying, "Even though I don't have smicho I'm going to sign 'rabbi' anyway." I found this very interesting as I'm sure all Lubavitch readers would, as the common lore is that the Rebbe received smicho from the Rogatchover.

Now, we anyway know that the smicho we have nowadays does not link back to Moshe Rabbeinu and the members of the Sanhedrin, as there was indeed a breach. Furthermore, from my own viewpoint, second to receiving smicho from Moshe Rabbeinu himself I cannnot think of a more prestigious smicho than one from the Rogatchover.

My question is simply this: in lieu of the revelation that the Rogatchover did not have smicho (although I always say: "[Ploni] may have smicho but he is not a rabbi; the Rogatchover, he was a rabbi, and he did not have smicho"), does anyone have any basis to believe that the Rogatchover ever gave semicho? Can anyone name a single rabbi in the past century who carried semicho from the Rogatchover (other than the Rebbe)?

(This question bears no implications regarding the Rebbe, of course. On the contrary, if the Rogatcover didn't need the "validation" of semicho, can we say the Rebbe did?)

Last edited by Mahus; 08-29-2004 at 11:29 AM.
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Unread 08-29-2004, 09:11 AM   #2
noahidelaws
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Well, what is the source for the shemu'a that the Rebbe received semicha from the Rogatchover?
see this thread

Last edited by noahidelaws; 08-29-2004 at 09:13 AM.
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Unread 08-29-2004, 09:14 AM   #3
Mahus
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
Well, what is the source for the shemu'a that the Rebbe received semicha from the Rogatchover?
I don't know, I don't have one. It's just common lore to me. That's why am asking if anyone can verify that the Rogatchover even gave semicho.
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Unread 08-29-2004, 09:52 AM   #4
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

yes, it can be verified--see the thread I refer to
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Unread 08-29-2004, 09:59 AM   #5
Torah613
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

I don't see any "verification" there.
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Unread 08-30-2004, 11:34 PM   #6
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

I have alsways heard about how the Rebbe got smicha from him. Check that english book the Rebbe- the early yrs or vol.2
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Unread 08-31-2004, 12:13 AM   #7
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Yo, we all heard it. The question is whether it has a source or it is just a legend. Varifying that the Rogatchover gave semicho to anyone at all, in light of the fact that he didn't have semicho himself, and was self-conscious about it, would greatly assist in providing credibility to what we've all heard (not that it would impact the Rebbe in any way in either case, like I mentioned before, the Rogatchover himself didn't have semicho, and that didn't stop him from being one of the greatest rabbis of all time).
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Unread 08-31-2004, 12:21 AM   #8
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

agreed but check out those books.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 12:28 AM   #9
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

I don't have access. Could you post a quote so we can evaluate the extent of its implications and the value of its credibility? If it could be resolved that easily, ma tov u'ma no'eh.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 12:29 AM   #10
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

I only saw them once... can't post b/c Idon't own em.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 04:45 AM   #11
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus

My question is simply this: in lieu of the revelation that the Rogatchover did not have smicho does anyone have any basis to believe that the Rogatchover ever gave semicho?
See letter and sicha below which indicate the Rogatchover gave smicha.
Attached Images
File Type: bmp IK V7 P245.bmp (270.8 KB, 294 views)
File Type: bmp 13 tamuz 5712.bmp (277.7 KB, 226 views)

Last edited by shoyn; 08-31-2004 at 06:05 AM.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 06:36 AM   #12
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

The Rogachover gave semicha to R Avrohom Plotkin, a Lubavitcher rov in Russia. The semicha is printed in R AP's sefer birurei halochos.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 06:36 AM   #13
Mahus
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

For anyone who couldn't read that, there's a letter from the Rebbe and also a weekday sicho (i.e. available on tape) mentioning the Rogatchover giving semicho. So we have, in writing and on tape, the Rebbe mentioning the Rogatchover giving semicho.

From here it is clear that he gave semicho even though he himself did not receive it from anyone. We still haven't found the source that Rebbe received it from him, but the fact that the Rogatchover himself did not have semicho no longer puts any sort of doubt on that legend.

Kudos shoyn, for posting those sources.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 06:39 AM   #14
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyn
The Rogachover gave semicha to R Avrohom Plotkin, a Lubavitcher rov in Russia. The semicha is printed in R AP's sefer birurei halochos.
Awesome. Good job! Thanks.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 01:00 PM   #15
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Great Job!! Thanks alot!
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Unread 08-31-2004, 07:54 PM   #16
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

"Many chasidim accept it as fact that the Rebbe had smicha (rabbinical ordination) from the Rogatchover Gaon.

"A newly annotated edition of Hayom Yom...contains a brief biography of the Rebbe. It states that the Rebbe received smicha from the Rogetchover. When the Rebbe reviewed the biography, he left this statement without changes."

source: The Rebbe: A Biography, volume 1;
researched, written and edited by a team of scholars, historians and professionals under the direction of Aharon Zev Mendelsohn
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Unread 08-31-2004, 08:07 PM   #17
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Can someone verify in which year the Rebbe's bio was first published in the Hayom Yom? Does anyone have an edition pre-27 Adar 5752 containing the Rebbe's bio?

This would help.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 08:56 PM   #18
Torah613
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson
"Many chasidim accept it as fact that the Rebbe had smicha (rabbinical ordination) from the Rogatchover Gaon.

"A newly annotated edition of Hayom Yom...contains a brief biography of the Rebbe. It states that the Rebbe received smicha from the Rogetchover. When the Rebbe reviewed the biography, he left this statement without changes."

source: The Rebbe: A Biography, volume 1;
researched, written and edited by a team of scholars, historians and professionals under the direction of Aharon Zev Mendelsohn
Without getting into side issues, this is the source alluded to before (at the beggining of the thread), and like I hinted at, the source as is needs further verification IMO (for obvious reasons).

Last edited by Torah613; 08-31-2004 at 09:11 PM.
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Unread 08-31-2004, 09:06 PM   #19
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
Can someone verify in which year the Rebbe's bio was first published in the Hayom Yom? Does anyone have an edition pre-27 Adar 5752 containing the Rebbe's bio?

This would help.
In the hayom yom's printed prior to 27 of adar, the Rebbe's bio is printed starting from the year 5701 [i.e. it does not mention the Rebbe getting semicha from the Rogatshover...]
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Unread 08-31-2004, 09:39 PM   #20
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

See? Just like Torah613 said.
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Unread 09-01-2004, 08:08 PM   #21
Mahus
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Re: Rogatchover Smicho

FYI: You can go check and you'll find that the article I quoted from Kfar Chabad magazine does exist, and was published in 5758. However, I just spoke with someone who has seen a book called Yahadus Latvia, covering a history of Jews in Latvia. In that book, as well as in a biography of the Rogatchover written by Mendel Kasher, it is cited that the Rogatchover did get semicho, and who specifically he got it from. So one may conclude that the Kfar Chabad story is a farce.

However, it still remains to be verified whether the Rebbe received semicho, and if so from whom.
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