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Unread 09-18-2007, 08:11 PM   #76
Torah613
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1) Probably some oversight on someones part (thankfully, you did not mention any names on this one). You can contact him and ask him.
2) Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? And is the possible geshmake loshon horo worth it?
3) There may be some truth to it, from my private observation. But I think it is more "generational", rather than "pre" and "post" GT. There is also a letter from VRL, decrying this very issue.
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Unread 09-18-2007, 08:41 PM   #77
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[list][*]I just came across a video advertising simchat torah in Australia with women dancing (seen as silohoetes) and not all were dressed tz'nua. [*]Is there more to the Shmully Boteach story than his claim that he was thrown out of shlichut for actively teaching 7M?[*]Is there truth to this guy's claim that shluchim became more lax, after 3T, about arranging for Jews to drive to them on Shabbat? [He, of course, is not generally a reliable source].
There was internal controversy over that video, and it is rarely used anymore. The Shliach may not have noticed.

He wasn't physically thrown, obviously. He was dismissed from his post for a combination of factors, two of which were publicly inviting Jews and non Jews to join and mix in his student club, and for his book Kosher Etc.

In fact, Shluchim have become more careful after Gimmel Tammuz, with Rabbonim speaking of guidelines etc. In general, Scott Rosenberg is not only unreliable, I have found that if he writes something I know the opposite must be truth, because in those things that he writes about and I have direct knowledge about the lies are so immense.
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Unread 09-18-2007, 09:11 PM   #78
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Frumkite, if you realy have the time, go interview some Lubavitchers in Minnesota about Scott Rosenberg. I promise you without a doubt that after doing so, that you will be embbarresed for ever quoting anything from him! Trust me, this is not a phylosophical issue at all. When I'll have time (maybe after Yom Kippur) I'll write some INTERSTING historical facts about him that I learned from one of the Shluchim in Minnesota.
Torah613 - Well said!
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Unread 09-18-2007, 10:45 PM   #79
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Frumkite, if you realy have the time, go interview some Lubavitchers in Minnesota about Scott Rosenberg. I promise you without a doubt that after doing so, that you will be embbarresed for ever quoting anything from him! Trust me, this is not a phylosophical issue at all. When I'll have time (maybe after Yom Kippur) I'll write some INTERSTING historical facts about him that I learned from one of the Shluchim in Minnesota.
I agree with everthing you said about Rosenberg. He's a sad individual and he himself writes about his personal yeridah. Nonetheless, individual facts may be true and, in this case, it was explained above that this dor is taking the shabbat issue less seriously. If anyone has a quote from the rebbe about inviting someone on shabbos I'd like to know (e.g., whether there's a difference between layil shabbos, where there's a chance they'll stay the whole shabbos, and shabbos morning, where their automatically driving on shabbos even if they wind up staying till the end. A litvak told me that their poskim only allow it if there's a chance that the guest will not be m'chalel shabbos, i.e., where there's an available sleeping arrangement, etc.) In any case, I went back and deleted the name of the chabad house from my post.

B & T
Thanks for the clarifications about the video and Boteach. I wanted to know what happened with Boteach because it didn't make sense that the shluchim office would so openly oppose the 7M campaign. I'm not removing his name since he publicizes his break with chabad.

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THAT THE Rebbe - the 13th anniversary of whose passing is commemorated this week - remains unknown to most of the non-Jewish world remains a tragic omission that requires rectification and constitutes the foremost failure of the otherwise astonishing achievements of Chabad. For he was a once-in-a-millennium holy man whose call for moral virtue, spiritual heroics and acts of lovingkindness was as universal as it was electrifying.

In 1992, just before the Rebbe's 90th birthday, hundreds of his worldwide emissaries gathered in a hall in Brooklyn to discuss how the important milestone should be observed. One rabbi got up and said that every emissary should bring 90 constituents to meet the Rebbe. Another suggested that 90 new Jewish day schools be opened over the course of the year.

I was one of the younger rabbis in the room, having just moved to Oxford, England, and I approached the microphone with trepidation. "We should endeavor to have the Rebbe awarded the Nobel Peace Prize," I offered.

My suggestion was greeted enthusiastically by the younger emissaries present, and with skepticism by the older guard. Ultimately, no steps were taken to have the Rebbe nominated - a missed opportunity if there ever was one, given that few world personalities had more eloquently articulated man's capacity for ushering in an era of eternal peace as did the Rebbe.

TO BE SURE, our people have always erred in believing that Judaism is only for Jews. The universal values our religion has bequeathed to the world have been largely treated as secondary to core Jewish ritual. As such, who would have thought that the teachings of a bearded rabbi in a long black coat could appeal to techies in Silicon Valley, or to ranchers in Wyoming?

Could the foremost spiritual leader of such a tiny people really have broad appeal? After all, the Dalai Lama, with shaven head and flowing red robes, who is the nominal head of Tibet with only 2.6 million citizens, was transformed into a global icon by his followers and was awarded the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize. Mother Theresa, in her simple white habit, won it for her faith-inspired humanitarian work in 1979.

What the followers of both decided early on was that the Dalai Lama and Mother Theresa had a global mission; while the followers of the Rebbe concluded that his mission was a Jewish one.

This was never the case. At every available opportunity the Rebbe reached out to non-Jews. Several times a year, when his live addresses were broadcast on national television, he always addressed the mainstream public. Whether the subject was the need for a moment of prayerful silence in public schools, or a call to greater acts of charity, the Rebbe made it clear that outreach to the widest possible audience was his intention.

Most importantly, he made it a central staple of Chabad outreach to teach the universal code of morality, as embodied in the Bible's Noachide covenant, to all non-Jews.

WHEN MY mother worked in a bank in Miami Beach, a Cuban Catholic co-worker who was childless asked me if she could write to the Rebbe for a blessing for children. I told her the Rebbe would welcome her letter. A few weeks later, she called me to share how elated she was at having received a warm response from the Rebbe. The fact that she later gave birth to two children is beside the more relevant point of the Rebbe's love for all of God's children.

Yet, 13 years after the Rebbe's passing, Chabad and the wider Jewish community's outreach to non-Jews remains virtually non-existent.

Chabad is the single most successful Jewish educational network in the history of the world. But there remain millions of Jews who still have not been impacted by its work and who can only be reached by Chabad's influencing the mainstream culture in which they live, including their non-Jewish friends and neighbors.

This is a subject that is extremely close to my heart. Three months after the Rebbe's death I was summoned from my station in Oxford to a meeting of the Chabad leadership in London, where I was told that I would have to rescind the membership of 5,000 non-Jewish students because too many in Anglo-Jewry complained that their participation diluted the Jewish character of our organization.

I WAS crestfallen and resisted the order, leading ultimately to my official separation from the Chabad movement. And yet, many of the non-Jewish leaders of our organization - most notably Cory Booker, who was our president and is today widely regarded as the second most important African-American politician in the US and who is a brother to me - remain stalwart friends of the Jewish community due to the openness they experienced as students.

I have never overcome the pain of that break and remain, till today, a man who loves and considers himself Chabad, even as he lives without a community.

I take comfort, however, in knowing that the Rebbe belonged not only to Chabad, and not only to Jews, but to humanity at large, to all who seek inspiration from giants who teach us to live selflessly, righteously and lovingly.
Quote:
After I married young, the Rebbe shipped me off to Oxford, where I served as his emissary for many years and where I developed an unquenchable desire to make Judaism a light to the whole world.

But then the Rebbe died and I had a major falling-out with the Chabad leadership because of my outreach to non-Jews. Ever since then, I have reconciled myself to the somewhat lonely status of being a Lubavitcher without a community. I compensated for my sense of isolation by becoming integrated into the mainstream Jewish community, even as I gave my children Chabad names and continued to essentially raise them within the Chabad mold.

WHAT I DID not know was whether my children would grow up and make the choice to be Lubavitch, as I had done. So when my daughter told me that she wanted to marry a Chabad rabbi and go off as an emissary to a university town where she could do outreach with students, as I and her mother had done, at first I was pleased; but then I was frightened.

What if my prospective son-in-law rejected me and my values? On any given Friday night, our Shabbat table is filled with Jews, non-Jews, African-Americans, bohemian TV producers, atheist journalists, devout ******ians, and sometimes Jews for J**** (whom I meet at my debates against ******ian missionaries).

My kids are used to this. But would someone who disagreed with my Jewish universalism pull my daughter away from me? Would my daughter, who has been raised to believe that Jewish wisdom should illuminate the earth, suddenly become more insular and parochial if the family into which she married shunned her father's values?

Who am I and where do I fit in? This is the existential question I have been forced to confront as my daughter embarks on her matrimonial journey.

My children have told me that over the past few years they have detected in me a desire to reconnect with my Chabad roots. They want to know why. I tell them that, first, strange as it may sound, I dream about the Rebbe all the time. I loved him deeply and I am amazed that more than a dozen years after his passing his memory continues to stir and haunt me.

I have had the privilege of meeting saints and savants all over the world. But none can approach the vastness of the Rebbe's love for humanity, and no Jew I have met has ever demonstrated a more profound commitment to his people.

Second, the more I travel to faraway places, the more I am amazed by the work Chabad does for forlorn individuals in the most remote locations.

In my professional life since leaving Chabad employment, I have had the enormous privilege of serving as an ambassador of my people. I am proud of being a rabbi with yarmulke and tzitzit on national TV who seeks to heal mostly non-Jewish families in crisis. But I do not fool myself into believing that my contribution to my people approximates the Chabad emissary whom I recently met in Anchorage, Alaska. He built a mikve and a Jewish day-school in a place where there would otherwise be none.

THE TALMUD says that a man without a home is not a man. But the same might be said of a man without a community. True, I am a Jew, and my people are my home. But it was Chabad that gave me a passion for my Judaism that has never diminished, and a love for my people that has never dissipated.

The prophet Malachi said that the hearts of the fathers would be restored through their children. Since my daughter's announcement that she wished to marry within Chabad, I have begun to ponder the words of Sigmund Freud concerning "strange mystical yearnings, the more powerful the less they can be expressed in words," that were pulling him toward his people.

I too feel those yearnings pulling and tugging. Pulling me home, pulling me home.
http://www.shmuley.com/articles.php?id=535
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Unread 09-19-2007, 12:35 AM   #80
Torah613
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If anyone has a quote from the rebbe about inviting someone on shabbos I'd like to know (e.g., whether there's a difference between layil shabbos, where there's a chance they'll stay the whole shabbos, and shabbos morning, where their automatically driving on shabbos even if they wind up staying till the end. A litvak told me that their poskim only allow it if there's a chance that the guest will not be m'chalel shabbos, i.e., where there's an available sleeping arrangement, etc.) In any case, I went back and deleted the name of the chabad house from my post.
The only relevant letter from the Rebbe that I know about about is in IK v 14 p 95 (and LS v 34 p 313). But the Rebbe does not have to give guidelines on this (and many other issues raised). There is a sefer called Shulchan Aruch, a set of laws called halacha, and people known as Rabbonim to help us apply it.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 11:39 AM   #81
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frumkite, there are obviously Rabbonim who are more machmir, but the pretty standard across the board rules are: They should be aware that they are welcome to stay with you for Shabbos and have the meal, either by direct invitation to do so or by awareness of your position that driving on Shabbos is forbidden, and if there is a parking lot built due to legal reasons and weekday programs etc. at best it should be chained for Shabbos and if not possible a sign should be posted about driving on Shabbos.

There really isn't anything you can do about the situation you bring where they park on the street etc. You can't forbid someone from coming to Rosh Hashanah davening because they came by car.

There will also always be those who do not follow what Rabbonim told them, or get a heter. These existed before as well. What has changed to a large degree is the character of Jews and Jewish communities - the flight to the suburbs and reliance and cars, assimilation to the point that they have no idea at all about Shabbos and halachos, even vaguely, and the post 70s non spiritual world means that people are searching for a community to belong to, not a spiritual path. If there would only have been thousands of Shluchim in the 70s...
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Unread 09-19-2007, 03:03 PM   #82
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T - thanks for the reference
B- thanks for the explanation

I'll look up the sources about shabbos morning, but if it's not in the rebbe's letter than I doubt a
sufficient answer can be found in SA, since m'chalal
ei shabbat are not apirkorsum, generally, in this dor.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 03:38 PM   #83
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I do not begin to understand the last paragraph. Whatever.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 04:40 PM   #84
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Just for the record, I love Shmulli Boteach and I think he's brilliant! He's a dynamic speaker and has a good heart!
I heard amazing reviews by people who were touched by him! When he spoke in shull, he must have mentioned the Rebbe at least 10 times!
GCT!
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Unread 09-19-2007, 04:41 PM   #85
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I do not begin to understand the last paragraph. Whatever.
Not everything do you need to understand. But I think it has something to do with counting them in for a minyan.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 04:43 PM   #86
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By Bittul:
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frumkite, there are obviously Rabbonim who are more machmir, but the pretty standard across the board rules are: They should be aware that they are welcome to stay with you for Shabbos and have the meal, either by direct invitation to do so or by awareness of your position that driving on Shabbos is forbidden, and if there is a parking lot built due to legal reasons and weekday programs etc. at best it should be chained for Shabbos and if not possible a sign should be posted about driving on Shabbos.
Where does it say (or which Rov told you) that you have to chain up the lot?
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Unread 09-19-2007, 05:45 PM   #87
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IIRC, the letter of VRL said something to that effect.
Why does it shock you?
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Unread 09-19-2007, 06:50 PM   #88
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IIRC, the letter of VRL said something to that effect.
Why does it shock you?
Because most shluchim I've been to get the bulk of their minyan from people who drive (if not maybe even all 9) and some from a distance.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 08:46 PM   #89
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This has been discussed by the Kinus, the tapes are publicly available. Generally Rabbi Shusterman, Rabbi Chaikin and ?Rabbi Sharfstein? are present. At least 2 of those were there when this was discussed.

Nevertheless, that is not a Psak Din for each Chabad house, and in individual cases the situation may be different.

Whether the people do drive or not does not affect whether we should facilitate parking.
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Unread 09-19-2007, 09:25 PM   #90
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Because most shluchim I've been to get the bulk of their minyan from people who drive (if not maybe even all 9) and some from a distance.
And the connection to putting up a chain is ... ?
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Unread 09-19-2007, 11:50 PM   #91
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And the connection to putting up a chain is ... ?
Making a statement - "don't drive to shull!".
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Unread 09-20-2007, 12:12 AM   #92
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Deleted

Last edited by flyaway; 09-20-2007 at 12:14 AM. Reason: Remebered my Hachloto not to be a scumbag.
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Unread 09-20-2007, 12:50 AM   #93
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Making a statement - "don't drive to shull!".
Exactly. Why would you object to such a statement?
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Unread 09-20-2007, 01:28 AM   #94
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Because then no minyan! And I don't see these shluchim making these statements since they DO have people drive!
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Unread 09-20-2007, 01:58 AM   #95
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Why don't the shluchim force them to walk?!!!!!!!
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Unread 09-20-2007, 08:28 AM   #96
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Because then no minyan! And I don't see these shluchim making these statements since they DO have people drive!
The chain (or sign) is a statement. If people want to drive anyway...
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Unread 09-20-2007, 11:06 AM   #97
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Making a statement - "don't drive to shull!".
Halachah is not about making statements.
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Unread 09-20-2007, 02:41 PM   #98
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I do not begin to understand the last paragraph. Whatever.
I meant that if the SA prohibits having any cheilek in someone being m'chalel shabbat, that may not apply in our dor (since today's chilonim are not true apikorsim and, that being the case, one could argue that, for them, it's an aliyah to drive to shul instead of other places and, with a few more aliyot, they may wind up shomer shabbat).

This would be similar to not following the halacha, iirc, of not giving aliyot to m'chalilei shabbat these days
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Unread 09-20-2007, 03:46 PM   #99
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The problem of having a part in someones Chilul Shabbos has nothing to do with the issue of apikorsus.
If a yid asks me if he should stay home on Shabbos or drive to shul, I think it pretty obvious that you have to tell him to stay home, even if he will be mechalel Shabbos in other ways.
Which makes the issue extremely delicate, and therefore needs good rabbinical guidance (and like I said, even among shluchim it is generational (if I am not mistaken)).
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Unread 09-20-2007, 04:25 PM   #100
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I know a shull that back in the day denied membership to mechalelei Shabbos!
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