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Unread 01-01-2003, 04:13 PM   #1
Jude
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Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir

Was there a unified response on the part of Chabad about what B. Goldstein and Y. Amir did, or did every shliach and mosad handle it on their own?
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Unread 01-01-2003, 04:21 PM   #2
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Why? What should be the response?
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Unread 01-01-2003, 04:36 PM   #3
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"Why" - because Orthodox Jews everywhere felt they had to respond since in both cases, Orthodox Jews killed.

"What should be the response?" - good question, I wonder what posters think, and (back to my original post) what shluchim etc. said at that time.

Two possible responses are to condemn what they did and to say this isn't approved of by Torah, and to laud or at least to defend what they did, and explain how there are Torah sources to back it up.
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Unread 01-01-2003, 06:35 PM   #4
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This is a valid dillema?!
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Unread 01-01-2003, 06:53 PM   #5
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what do you mean by "valid dilemma"?
this is something which made Orthodox Jews the world over squirm, and you'd better believe they had emergency meetings to discuss how to handle it
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Unread 01-01-2003, 07:52 PM   #6
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I don't think that either one did what they are alleged of having done. About Yigal Amir that is proven (read "who murdered Yitzchak Rabin" and other sources, that it is impossible that Yigal killed Rabin), and about B. Goldstein there are so many unsolved questions about what and how it happened, that one thing at least is for sure: He didn't do it by himself.
Lubavitch didn't at the time come out with an official statement, but Kfar Chabad Magazine wrote about it in the editorials etc.
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Unread 01-01-2003, 07:56 PM   #7
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in response to the question about what to say... i don't know what to say but i do know how i feel... the jewish world in general seems to take a passive role in the majority of world issues... these two men did an action out of desperation... only they can truly understand the reasoning behind it... i don't know about the whys and wherefores but i do think that what it reminds me of is when you have a bully who constantly attacks this one kid and then one day the kid hits back... the bully is suprised and angry that the kid hit back... i believe in owning and learning how to use a gun... i think that after what happened in th holocaust it is important for us to say that we can defend ourselves when we need to... and not to depend on the oomos ha'olam for protection... because they have prooven that they cannot be trusted....
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Unread 01-01-2003, 08:16 PM   #8
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and what did the K.C. editorials say?
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Unread 01-01-2003, 08:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by untervegens
...read "who murdered Yitzchak Rabin"
How do you like other articles by the same author:

Three Israeli ET Abductions
Huge UFO Leaves Its Mark On Israeli Corn Field
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Unread 01-01-2003, 10:48 PM   #10
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were these murderers' (amir and goldstein) actions not publicly condemned by Chabad, at the time??
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Unread 01-01-2003, 10:52 PM   #11
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i should really hope that their actions werent defended!!
what a horrible example to set from pple who were officially orthodox...i dont think Chabad imitated the rhetoric of some other groups who defended and praised them to the skies, as the reincarnation of Pinchas or something...
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Unread 01-02-2003, 08:13 AM   #12
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wandering:
just to say something in the defence of bouruch goldstien.
some ppl. believe that on that very friday after their prayer the Arabs wanted to go out with guns and make a killing in the jewish chevron, (that why they found alot of guns hidden in the 'meoras hamachpaila').
BG HaYaD did what he did in order to stop the masecure on the Jews.
was he right in what he did? i am not the one to say no?
if what he thought was true would you condem his actions? i'm not so sure?
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Unread 01-02-2003, 12:50 PM   #13
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"My wife Miriam and I are the parents of the late Dr. Baruch Goldstein z"tl. We made aliya in December 1987, our three children having preceded us, and we have been living in the beautiful town of Kiryat Arba ever since. Miriam, whose grandfather was a milkman in Hebron last century, is a direct descendant of the Ba'al HaTanya.

...

Baruch, our eldest child, was named after my father of blessed memory who, too, bore the English name of Benjamin (the latter appellation given to him after the turn of the century by some Ellis Island functionary).

Baruch, a soft-spoken, sweet, pious, humble, yet proud Jew, lived for his people and died for them.

A top student, he attended the Yeshiva of Flatbush, was president of his class at Yeshiva University and, when he graduated from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, his distinguished performance there earned him acceptance into AOA, the national medical honor society.
He excelled in all that he did, whether as student, basketball player, waterfront head at Camp Hillel or, to the amazement of sundry garage mechanics, in keeping his old car running. More important, he was devoted heart, body and soul to Hashem and to the Jewish people.

After making aliya in 1982, he married his wonderful sabra wife, Miryam, who bore him four children, the oldest now ten and the youngest two. He could have chosen to serve in the IDF for 18 months, but elected instead to stay in for a full three years. That was Baruch.

An officer, he served with distinction in Lebanon during that war, and his army discharge certificate describes the nature of his service as "devoted, efficient, diligent, enterprising, thorough, disciplined, and expert in his profession."

As a matter of fact, Baruch was to have been promoted to the rank of Major this past Independence Day (after the February 25th incident, the IDF, to be sure, denied that fact until someone made public the official recommendation which had been approved).

Also enclosed are copies of awards that he received and other material attesting to the exemplary nature of his work.

Baruch's walkie-talkie was with him 24 hours a day, seven days a week. At night, he slept in sweatpants so that he would waste no time in responding to emergency calls.

With regard to emergency calls, they kept him running day and night. Once upon arriving at the scene of a terrorist road attack where three soldiers had been shot, two doctors there who had come from nearby immediately deferred to him, well aware of the superior level of his ability to render emergency care. His high degree of competence was wellknown to and uniformly praised by the staffs of hospital emergency rooms in Jerusalem. Always up to-date on the latest developments in the field, in Israel Baruch maintained his subscription to Emergency Medicine.

Those two doctors informed him that one soldier was dead, and suggested that he work on the other two who had been less severely wounded. But Baruch would not accept that. Pleading with Hashem and praying fervently, he wrenched the "dead" soldier's mouth open with all his might, called his ambulance driver to hand him the equipment he needed and, thank G-d, was able to save the man's life. That "dead" soldier is alive and well today - as are the other two.

I could go on and on without end in describing similar life - saving acts on his part. I'll mention just one other incident, this one where some student drowned in a pool. There was no sign of life when Baruch arrived. That "drowned" Israeli youngster is, thank G-d, in excellent health today.

Baruch, in addition to being the emergency service physician in the area, drove regularly several times a week to nine yishuvim in the vicinity to provide family practice medical care. Although having served in that capacity for years, and despite a marked increase in terrorist shooting incidents on the roads around here, he refused to give up the assignment and take a less dangerous one (Not too long ago, on one of those roads, Rabbi Druckman?s driver was shot and killed and the rabbi injured). Baruch knew that he was needed and, as a dedicated physician and proud Jew, he just wouldn't quit.

I am told that whenever he arrived at a yishuv, even people not ill would gather around just to enjoy the warming glow of his understanding, extremely sensitive and self-effacing presence.

When the family was sitting shiv'a, people came to us and declared that although Baruch, with the help of the Almighty, saved many lives while he lived, he saved many more when he died.

Friday, Purim morning, was the middle of Ramadan. For days before, loudspeakers on mosques in Hebron had been blaring forth their message of hate, "Itbach el-yahood!" ("Slaughter the Jews!") without any interference by the IDF (Contrast that with the way Jews in Israel today are being locked up for extended periods without trial for alleged acts of incitement).

By means of notices and wall inscriptions, Arab terrorists were urging the Hebron masses to store up lots of food for the long curfew that would inevitably follow a mid-Ramadan slaughter of Jews.

A few days before Baruch's preemptive strike in the Me'arat Hamachpela (Cave of the Patriarchs) - and this can be verified by members of the Kiryat Arba Town Council who were present - a high ranking IDF officer came and urged Baruch to prepare emergency operating facilities for an expected Purim attack upon Jews!

The day before Purim, while Baruch was at afternoon prayers in the Me'arah, "innocent Arab worshippers" pushed in from an adjacent room (the very room of their next morning's convocation) shouting "Itbach el-yahood!" My son turned to an IDF officer on the scene and asked him to stop this outrage. The officer simply shrugged his shoulders and walked away.

On Purim, early the next morning, "innocent Arab worshippers", many wearing outlawed-extremist-group green kaffiahs and including at least one wanted terrorist who had come all the way from Sh'chem with his gang, showed up for a pre-dawn, slaughter-the-Jews pep-rally prayer session. But Baruch, who had donned his officer's uniform for this last act of sacrifice for his people, showed up, too, with his Galilon rifle.

After the incident, an IDF officer was overheard on his walkie-talkie excitedly reporting his finding a Kalashnikov, axes and other weapons on the scene.

All of this has been covered up. As Minister of Defense, didn't Rabin know of the ongoing terrorist incitement in Hebron and of the impending Purim massacre of Jews? If not, why not? Can he have written off the lives of the Jewish residents of Judea, Samaria and Gaza in his blind, bloody race for the Nobel Peace Prize? How can that be, for is not Rabin an honorable man?

The official death certificate shows the cause of Baruch's death to have been "murder". The Shamgar Commission found that he was already disarmed and helpless when he was held and killed, and so his killing was unlawful. Our family has petitioned the police to investigate and arrest his murderers. Nothing.

Hundreds of Jews would have been in the Me'arat Hamachpela later on that Purim morning. Who knows how many of those men, women and children would have been massacred, had it not been for Baruch's kiddush Hashem? Lots of them came to us with tears in their eyes as we sat shiv'a, trying to comfort us and expressing their gratitude for Baruch's having give up his life to save them.

The world rushed to condemn and vilify our son. Respected Jewish leaders lost no time in crying out their profuse apologies and laying down a groveling, breast-beating barrage as they jumped on the bandwagon. Where was their sustained outcry when Jews (including his good friends, the Lapids) were dying in Baruch's arms, victims of unrelenting Arab terrorism? Where were they as, week after week, he would make his weary way home, his clothing soaked in Jewish blood?

Where are the leaders of the schools Baruch attended, who joined in the chorus of unbridled censure? Not a single word of sympathy or consolation did they send to the family.

Save for an appearance with my dear daughter-in-law, Miryam, before the Shamgar Commission, I have remained silent until now, taking the counsel of D'Israeli, i.e., never complain and never explain. The media here are experts at deceit and distortion. When spoken to, they do an excellent job of twisting words. Thus, we did not grant interviews, but some reporters just went ahead and fabricated them. When no picture of my daughter-in-law was available, a newspaper printed one of a stranger and said that it was she.

They have hounded her and the children mercilessly, and have even gone after her former classmates and teachers, clawing in vain for some negative comment about her. One woman reporter paid a shiv'a call wearing a hidden tape recorder and sat there looking and sounding so concerned and solicitous. How low can a person get?

...and trust you ... not to be intimidated by would-be censors and to have the courage to print this letter in its entirety, the letter which tells the truth about Baruch Koppel Goldstein HY"D.

In the name of honesty, fairness and decency, I beg you not to cast it aside.

With abiding faith in Hashem and love of Israel,

Irwin (Yisrael) Goldstein.
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Unread 01-03-2003, 10:12 AM   #14
stamayid
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For what it's worth, here is a link to a collection of rabbinic statements following the Rabin assasination http://mail-jewish.org/rabin.html
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Unread 01-04-2003, 07:44 PM   #15
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At the time of the Rabin murder, the entire left in Israel went on a blaming the frum/right for the murder. Some Rabbis in Israel were publicly 'klapping al chet' for the murder, and that it's true that the frum are to extreme in their wording etc. etc.
The K.C. magazine wrote, that we condemn the murder, but we don't agree with the al chet attitude, because he was a loner, acted on his own, and in general violence is more or less unheard in the orthodox circles.
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Unread 01-04-2003, 07:47 PM   #16
untervegens
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid


How do you like other articles by the same author:

Three Israeli ET Abductions
Huge UFO Leaves Its Mark On Israeli Corn Field
Israeli Mid-Air UFO Explosion Analyzed - It's The Real Thing
Chupacabras (alien animal) Reappears In Lautaro, Chile
Are these real titles?
In any case it's not just Bari Chamish, but there were numerous articles in the Israeli press with many unanswered question regarding the Rabin murder. Also the handling of Avishai Raviv is more then suspicious.
Is it that difficult to believe that some people in the Israeli inteligence (ukayotze boze) decided to kill Rabin for various reasons?
Did you ever read 'Perfedy' by Ben-Hecht? Do you think anything changed since then?
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Unread 01-04-2003, 08:16 PM   #17
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And who murdered J.F.K?????..........
C'mon with these crazy theories.....
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Unread 01-04-2003, 08:53 PM   #18
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Yes, they are real titles. The man is meshuga, or maybe just a "normal" alien!

Last edited by RebYid; 01-04-2003 at 10:52 PM.
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Unread 01-05-2003, 09:23 AM   #19
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ok, ok. Forget about Bari Chamish. There were many, including Mrs. Rabin and their daughter Rabin Pilosoph, who have still many questions open regarding the murder and it's details. There was a big article in Yediot a couple of years ago with many major problems about the findings of the Vaadat Shamgar. This murder isn't clear. The entire nation in Israel heard about the calls "srak srak" right after the shooting. The latest that came out was about the Klempner video of the shooting. It only came out a few weeks after the murder, and the guy said that he kept it by himself. Now it came out that the cameraman worked for the Shabak, that the film was at the Shabak for those weeks, and more things like that. This entire thing is full of mysteries.
Why were all of the copies of "mi ratzach es rabin" originaly bought off (in bulk, in order that it shouldn't get to the public) the day it hit the stores in Israel?
Of course for an American it sounds like "who killed JFK", but (besides for maybe it indeed was the CIA or something like that?) if you will ask most Israelis who aren't biased about the "peace" process, they will agree that this isn't so simple that Yigal Amir killed Rabin. People who aren't normaly in to conspiracy theories will tell you this, because this story stinks.
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Unread 01-05-2003, 12:06 PM   #20
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http://www.professors.org.il/docs/58.htm
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Unread 06-27-2004, 12:41 AM   #21
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who did baruch goldstein kill? Who killed him? Why is everyone mad at him? When did this happen?
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Unread 07-07-2004, 03:15 PM   #22
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Baruch Goldstein hy"d, opened fire in a mosque to prevent a massacre against the Jews. Unfortunately, he was killed in the process. This took place close to Adar in Tof Shin Nun Daled, if I'm not mistaken.

I heard that Baruch Goldstein treated Jews and Arabs medically equally and his Arab patients tipped him off about the massacre. However, when he went to the Israeli government, they ignored him and he decided to take matters into his own hands.

Baruch Goldstein worked tirelessly with a lot of Mesiras Nefesh to help Jewish people.
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