Shtreimel

[noahidelaws]

Rabbi Boruch Lesches reportedly said that someone from Boro Park asked the Rebbe:

Person from Boro Park: "Why doesn't the Rebbe wear a Shtreimel?" The Rebbe: "Would I wearing a Shtreimel bring back Yidden to Yidishkiet?" P.F.B.: "If you do half of Boropark will instantly become your Chosidim." The Rebbe: "And what is wrong with where they are?" P.F.B.: "I see." The Rebbe: "It is where the Kibutzniks are which is wrong, if they would become frum if I wore a Shtreimel by all means I would wear one."

[chossidnistar]

Maybe Moshichistm should start wearing Shtreimel , so we can attract all the Jewish crowds

[mosheh5769]

How accurate are these stories?

1) when asked why he had abandoned the Hasidic hat, the Rebbe said that wearing Hasidic hats would impress many people in Mea Shearim (the Orthodox neighborhood of Jerusalem) and Borough Park, but these good people are already pious Jews. What needs to be done, the Rebbe is reported to have said, is to reach a Jew like the kibbutznik, someone whose piety may leave a little something to be desired. Wear the hat of the world, he continued, eliminate the barriers between you and the secular masses, and you will bring back the wayward Jew to the fold of the Toire (Torah).
http://www.wernercohn.com/hats.html
It sounds like the same story reported by Noach.

2) Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak, as we all know, wore a shtreimel. His rebbitzen took possession of the shtreimal with many of his other possessions. Rabbi Menachem Mendel asked to be given the shtreimel during the year of time when their was no clear successor to Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak. The rebbitzen refused to give it to him (presumably because he was not yet confirmed as the next Rebbe). After he took leadership as Rebbe, she offered to give him the shtreimel, but he declined it at that time, and made some remark to the effect that "that opportunity has passed" [i.e., in some way, it was now inappropriate to take possession of the shtreimel since initially he had been denied].
http://ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v47/mj_v47i59.html#CSD

[Meshulam]

I suspect that the truth is something of a combination of both of the above stories.

Does anybody have any idea when we adopted the custom of dressing like the Rebbe? That custom certainly is much younger than the Rebbe's nasius. Perhaps there is some lesson to be learned from the Rebbe's "accessible" levushim. (I put accessible in quotes because at the beginning of the Nasius, the kapote and fedora look was rather contemporary -now not so much).

[Torah613]

The American bochurim always dressed - "American", meaning "fedora" (often light colored) and short jacket. See the old pictures.

Maybe I am not understanding your question.

[Meshulam]

It was more or less a rambling serious of unconnected sentences, so I think you did an admirable job of understanding it.

I was trying to point out that if the Rebbe's levush (that is, without the standard bekkeshe and streimal) is supposed to make him more accessible/modern looking, why have we not modernized our own levush to follow in suit?

What constitutes better hiskashrus? Wearing the same size hat as the *Rebbe? Or wearing a hat that fits, and sends a message of approachability?

*Perhaps similar questions could be asked about the Rebbe's specific style of socks, shirts, etc.

[chossidnistar]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

What constitutes better hiskashrus? Wearing the same size hat as the Rebbe? Or wearing a hat that fits, and sends a message of approachability?

do you mean like a beseball cap with a logo?

[Meshulam]

Well, Cossidnistar pointed out the obvious issue. But if it was understood when the Rebbe began his nesius that dressing like the Rebbe was not expected (and, perchance, not encouraged?) what changed that? Why is the kapote and fedora look the "uniform"? Would anything be "wrong" with a longer coat, and an up-hat?

[Avrami87]

Originally Posted by Torah613

The American bochurim always dressed - "American", meaning "fedora" (often light colored) and short jacket. See the old pictures.

Maybe I am not understanding your question.

I know a Lubavitcher Rov who still carries a gray straw fedora.

[ktonton]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

why have we not modernized our own levush to follow in suit?

because chabadnikim are insecure in their own derech?

fedoras are still "cool" though.

[mosheh5769]

So after reading all this, the impression I have is that the Lub who would dare wearing a Shtreimel would become a black sheep among Chabad.

I'm fine with my Borsalino, this is not the problem. But why so much pressure on Levush? I tell you honestly, I dress in black every day with a white shirt (It's impossible for me to think dressing otherwise), and even that, it bothers some people (they have to say that I want to look more frum than they, who sometimes dress differently on weekdays and reserve their black clothes for Shabbes, something like that, I don't know and I don't care). I've said once in the past I have had a reprimand from my Rav simply because I dared to wear my Katan over the shirt and not below. For him, it was as if I wanted to be part of another Chasidus. What's wrong with a Lub wearing a Shtreimel? (Not on a regular basis but, for instance, only on Shabbes Yom Tov) Because the Rebbe did not wear one? There are so many things that the Rebbe did and that virtually no Lub does. I saw Lubs being unpopular because they were dressed in gray suit on Shabbes and not black (too modern? not so Lub?), but the Rebbe also dressed in gray suit before taking the Nessius, etc.. I'm not trying to advocate wearing a Shtreimel (I don't really see the usefulness, I'm extremist enough without it, but for someone else who want to wear it {and has money for it}), but where is the limit in emulating Ma'asei Rov/Ma'asei Rebbe? We also saw that the Rebbeim did not imitate each other, but is it that they were not connected to each other?

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

I saw Lubs being unpopular because they were dressed in gray suit on Shabbes and not black (too modern? not so Lub?), but the Rebbe also dressed in gray suit before taking the Nessius, etc..

On Shabbos? I think not.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

On Shabbos? I think not.

I, too, don't think so. it was just to explian that some Lub are "extremist" about Levush and conformism (Who said that it wasn't Lubavitch to wear grey suit on Shabbes?)

Had the Rebbe formally banned the wearing of Shtreimel among Lubavitchers, except for Chabad Yerushalmites? Or does his refusal to wear a Shtreimel applied to every Lubavitchers? If the answer to both questions is "yes", then no problem. Anyway, I've never wore it and it's not in my plans to wear it one day, but I just want to know.

[Shmeryl]

Clearly any one who wears a Streimel is focussing on themself and not on being a chassid of the Rebbe..

[Torah613]

... or (gasp!) he may just be continuing minhag avoisav...

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Torah613

... or (gasp!) he may just be continuing minhag avoisav...

Or he was from another chasidus and became Lubavitch later.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Shmeryl

Clearly any one who wears a Streimel is focussing on themself and not on being a chassid of the Rebbe..

That's true in many cases but generaly, those persons choose to leave Lubavitch for another chasidus as someone I know who became Breslover to have longer peyos because he always has been attracted by such display of external piety. This is the °problem° some have about Lubavitch: we are internal focused.

[Meshulam]

Hello Pot. Let me introduce you to the Kettle.

Are you guys kidding? I want to understand this properly.

1. Chabad means pnimiyus, so that means no streimlach.

2. Someone who wears a streimel (and who doesn't have an excuse) is a chitzoni (and is "focusing only on himself, and not being a Chossid of the Rebbe").

3. People who leave Chabad do so because they are Chitzonim.

Now that I've boiled down Shmeryl and Moshe's positions to 3 accurate summaries, I will respond to the summaries. And I don't want to be accused of making a straw-man. I think I've accurately summarized your positions. I'll start the way I usually start: I would love to see sources for any of the above statements. And to be clear, I know "Chabad Mont Pnimius." But that's not a source for the above, because all of the arguments brought by Pot and Kettle above are svoros based upon their (skewed) view of the the notion that Chabad is pnimiyus. I'm interested in sources, not svoros. But more specifically:

1. If wearing a streimel is necessarily chitzoni (and self-absorbed), why is wearing only a fedora not chitzoni? If chitzoni is defined by attachment to superficial matters like clothing rather than internal matters like... (like what? Chassidus? Fill me in - please) - then how could there be a dress code for pnimim? Why isn't focusing on the zulas's hat (furry or otherwise) any more chitzonius than the zulas's decision to change hat-styles?

2. If someone leaves Chabad to become a different kind of Chossid - why is the assumption automatically that this former Chabadsker is superficial (or, as Kettle put it "he always has been attracted by such display of external piety")? Is it possible that someone who leaves Chabad finds meaning in the teachings of a different Chassidus (ie, that Rebbe Nachman speaks more to him, somehow, than our Rebbe's Chassidus speaks to him)? Or, more likely, is it possible that he grew fed-up with narrow-minded Lubavitchers, and chose to associate himself with people who were more inward and focused on doing what their Rebbe (in the above example, Rebbe Nachman) taught than on superficial things like whether you wear a fedora, and on whether you have payos?

Your ignorance about the nature of other Rebbes teachings does not necessitate the conclusion that any other group (furry-hatted or not) is less pnimius than Chabad. Now, like I said before, if you can bring a source for any of your (either of your) assertions, then I'd be happy to discuss. But so far, all I see is bumper-sticker wisdom.

[mosheh5769]

Mission Impossible 4: Discussing With Meshulam (Without Any Hazing).

Your conclusion about what I'm supposed to believe are quite funny.

[Meshulam]

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

Mission Impossible 4: Discussing With Meshulam (Without Any Hazing).

Your conclusion about what I'm supposed to believe are quite funny.

I'm sorry if you feel hazed. I strongly disagree with your judgments. You apparently believe that people who leave Chabad are superficial. I think you're subjecting folks to a more unfair hazing than I am.

As I said, if I'm wrong about something, please correct me.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

"he always has been attracted by such display of external piety")?

I'm talking about someone I personnaly know and who admitted himself that truth. Before becoming Breslover, he wanted to marry a Yerushalmite woman and dreamt to be a Yerushalmi himself in another life, just for the long Peyos. So, you see that it has nothing to do with "being touched" by Rebbe Nachman's teachings (nothing wrong to be attracted by another Chasidus, but not for such reasons)

Originally Posted by Meshulam

Your ignorance about the nature of other Rebbes teachings does not necessitate the conclusion that any other group (furry-hatted or not) is less pnimius than Chabad.

Who said that Chabad was the only valuable Chasidus? You are very quick to make others mean what you wanted them to mean in their sayings.

I think you should work harder on your Middos Mr. Meshulam.

[mosheh5769]

Who (or what) are Pot and Kettle??? Excuse my ignorance

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

I'm sorry if you feel hazed. I strongly disagree with your judgments. You apparently believe that people who leave Chabad are superficial. I think you're subjecting folks to a more unfair hazing than I am.

As I said, if I'm wrong about something, please correct me.

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

Had the Rebbe formally banned the wearing of Shtreimel among Lubavitchers, except for Chabad Yerushalmites? Or does his refusal to wear a Shtreimel applied to every Lubavitchers? If the answer to both questions is "yes", then no problem. Anyway, I've never wore it and it's not in my plans to wear it one day, but I just want to know.

Originally Posted by mosheh5769

What's wrong with a Lub wearing a Shtreimel? (Not on a regular basis but, for instance, only on Shabbes Yom Tov) Because the Rebbe did not wear one? There are so many things that the Rebbe did and that virtually no Lub does...I'm not trying to advocate wearing a Shtreimel (I don't really see the usefulness, I'm extremist enough without it, but for someone else who want to wear it {and has money for it}), but where is the limit in emulating Ma'asei Rov/Ma'asei Rebbe? We also saw that the Rebbeim did not imitate each other, but is it that they were not connected to each other?

Does it give you the impression that I am anti-Shtreimel?

But some people I know, who left Chabad for other Chasidus, have done it first for that reason (I am not talking about those I don't know and who very well could have left for other reasons, I do not deny it, and I do not diminish the value of other Chasidus)

[MahTovChelkeinu]

I don't believe for a minute that your friend really turned his back on Chabad because he wanted to wear a streimel and peyos. Even if that's what he told you, even if that's the only reason you can see, I don't believe you.

[mosheh5769]

Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu

I don't believe for a minute that your friend really turned his back on Chabad because he wanted to wear a streimel and peyos. Even if that's what he told you, even if that's the only reason you can see, I don't believe you.

I know this guy from Cheder. And I can only judge from wjhat he told me, and this is what he told me; if it's not true, this is his problem, but he told me that he became Breslover to have longer Peyos he always dreamt to have, something impossible among Chabad conservatism.