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Unread 07-22-2009, 02:00 PM   #1
mosheh5769
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Nishmas Kol Chay

Could someone tell me who composed the beautiful prayer of Nishmas Kol Chay? Does the Talmud have a word to say about the origin of this prayer?


What I know is it is partially cited in the Talmud as a prayer of thanksgiving for the rainfall that follows a drought:
Talmud - Mas. Berachot 59b
FOR THE RAIN etc. Is the benediction for rain Who is good and does good? Has not R. Abbahu said some say it has been taught in a Baraita: From when do they say the blessing over rain? From the time when the bridegroom goes out to meet his bride.16 What blessing do they say? R. Judah said: We give thanks to Thee for every drop which Thou hast caused to fall for us; and R. Johanan concluded thus: If our mouths were full of song like the sea . . . . we could not sufficiently give thanks unto Thee, O Hashem our God, etc. up to shall prostrate itself before Thee. Blessed art Thou, O Hashem, to whom abundant thanksgivings are due.17 (Is it abundant thanksgivings and not all thanksgivings? Raba said: Say, the G-d to whom thanksgivings are due. R. Papa said: Therefore let us say both to whom abundant thanksgivings are due and G-d of thanksgivings.
16 I.e., when the drops commence to rebound from the earth.
17 V. P.B. p. 125.

Talmud - Mas. Taanit 7a
R. Abbahu said: When do we [begin to] recite the benediction over rain?27 When the bridegroom goes forth to meet the bride.28 What benediction should one recite? Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: We give thanks unto Thee, O Lord, our God for every single drop which thou hast caused to fall upon us. And R. Johanan concluded the benediction thus: Though our mouths were full of song as the sea, and our tongues of exultation as the multitude of its waves, etc.! until, Let not Thy mercies forsake us O Lord, our God, even as they have not forsaken us . Blessed art Thou to Whom abundant thanksgivings are due. Abundant thanksgivings and not all the thanksgivings? Raba replied: Read, The God to Whom thanksgivings are due. R. Papa said: Therefore we should say both the God to Whom thanksgivings are due and to Whom abundant thanksgivings are due.

27 Cf. Ber. 54a.
28 When the accumulated rain-water rebounds to meet every additional drop of rain as it falls.

Is there any other reference?


Why am I asking such question?

I was returning home from the Beis Chabad and two men (I founded later that they were Messianic Jews searching for lost Jewish souls) started telling me about Paul of Tarsus. They quickly realized that I was not a novice and the discussion was soon shortened. Of all the silly things they told me, I do remember only one thing: they claimed that their "Rabbi" (and it has been confirmed to them by a Reform Rabbi they know) has a source that Paul of Tarsus was the one who composed the prayer of Nishmas Kol Chay.



According to what I know, the authorship is unknown. The first paragraph was known in Mishnaic times, the second was composed during the talmudic period and the concluding part was added during the geonic period. So I am 2000% sure that the heretic is not the author of this prayer, otherwise it would never have been included in our liturgy. It may be a stupid question or a question without answer, but is there a source to identify the authorship?




In all cases, the moral of the story is that ******ians are capable of everything when it comes to "saving Jewish souls from hell"






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Unread 07-22-2009, 02:10 PM   #2
chossidnistar
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some say that the author was Rabbi Shimon ben Shetach
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Unread 07-22-2009, 02:22 PM   #3
Torah613
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That is an old legend, brought in Machzor Vitri, who argues on it. In other words, already in the time of the Rishonim this legend was going around. See Siddur Otzar Hatfillos for some sources.

Like chossid mentioned, some mention R' Shimon ben Shotach as the author (mentioned there).
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Unread 07-22-2009, 04:57 PM   #4
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Self-delete. Torah613 made the same point, only better.
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[url="http://wolfishmusings.blogspot.com"]WolfishMusings[/url] (my blog)
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Unread 07-22-2009, 06:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
That is an old legend, brought in Machzor Vitri, who argues on it. In other words, already in the time of the Rishonim this legend was going around. See Siddur Otzar Hatfillos for some sources.

Like chossid mentioned, some mention R' Shimon ben Shotach as the author (mentioned there).
Ol, but who launched that legend, ******ains or Jews?
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Unread 07-22-2009, 06:56 PM   #6
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disturbed

I'm a little bit disturbed. If this heretic is the author of Nishmas, why included it in our holy liturgy? Concerning an other heretic (I will not mention his name) who believed to be the Messiah and later converted to Islam, it has been forbidden to even read his writting. An the name of a wicked man or a traitor to Judaism must be blotted out. Si if the other heretic is the author,
why Chazal have retained his prayer in our liturgy and even added to it? I wish so much that it is Rabbi Shimon who has written it.
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Unread 07-22-2009, 09:25 PM   #7
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I remember learning that you can find R' Shimon's name hidden in the words of Nishmas (but I don't remember exactly how)... so that means that either he actually did write it or that someone was trying way too hard to "prove" a made-up story...
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Unread 07-22-2009, 10:04 PM   #8
Torah613
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The alleged author, that the Machzir Vitri debunks, is also named "Shimon" ( ).
Yes, that remez is brought in the aforementioned siddur.
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Unread 07-22-2009, 10:16 PM   #9
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Oh ok. Thanks for the clarification!
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Unread 07-23-2009, 02:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
The alleged author, that the Machzir Vitri debunks, is also named "Shimon" ( ).
Yes, that remez is brought in the aforementioned siddur.
is that paul or peter?
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Unread 07-23-2009, 06:51 AM   #11
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is that paul or peter?
It sounds like Simon Peter, an other disciple of the Nazarene.

If it is the same Simon Peter, maybe he began composing Nishmas before the Nazarene sect was swallowed by ******ianity.

According to what I have learned, the first Nazarenes were Torah observants and didn't believe Yashke was G-d or one part of a trinity and so many other believes developed later by ******ianity. Maybe they weren't heretics when Yashke was still alive. Nevertheless, it is still troubling.

I thought I would heard some good news, but you are announcing me that it may be a Nazarene who composed one of the most beautiful prayers. So Maybe Simon Peter was a better Jew than Paul the Heretic.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 07:58 AM   #12
Torah613
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Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post

is that paul or peter?
Actually, the MV refers to him as . I have no idea who it would be referring to (have to brush up on my history...). But in any case, the Machzor Vitri writes about those that repeat that legend ,
See the Rebbe's hagaddah where he brings that some say it was Shimon ben Shotach, and he brings the remez.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 08:53 AM   #13
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Omein
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Unread 07-23-2009, 10:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
It sounds like Simon Peter, an other disciple of the Nazarene.

If it is the same Simon Peter, maybe he began composing Nishmas before the Nazarene sect was swallowed by ******ianity.

According to what I have learned, the first Nazarenes were Torah observants and didn't believe Yashke was G-d or one part of a trinity and so many other believes developed later by ******ianity. Maybe they weren't heretics when Yashke was still alive. Nevertheless, it is still troubling.

I thought I would heard some good news, but you are announcing me that it may be a Nazarene who composed one of the most beautiful prayers. So Maybe Simon Peter was a better Jew than Paul the Heretic.
My understanding (I claim no expertise in this area) was that they believed all, or many, of the problematic ******ian ideas - but that they maintained that they were Jews. Paul was the one who (b''h) moved them away from common Jewish practice, and established a new religion. (I write b''h because it is much better that their religion should be distinguishable from us, rather than a "Jewish sect." We have historically lost more ehrliche Yidden to Haskalah, Neologism, Zionism, Bundism, etc. than to ******ianity in part because they are decidedly non-Jews).
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Unread 07-23-2009, 10:50 AM   #15
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I have also heard it said that this Saul/Paul was actually sent by Chazal on a mission to make Yushkie-worship a completely different religion so that it could not be confused with Judaism.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:48 AM   #16
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I have also heard it said that this Saul/Paul was actually sent by Chazal on a mission to make Yushkie-worship a completely different religion so that it could not be confused with Judaism.
I've never seen a source for that, but I've heard it as well.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
it is much better that their religion should be distinguishable from us, rather than a "Jewish sect." We have historically lost more ehrliche Yidden to Haskalah, Neologism, Zionism, Bundism, etc. than to ******ianity in part because they are decidedly non-Jews).
I agree 100%. Gam Zou L'Tovah
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:56 AM   #18
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I have also heard it said that this Saul/Paul was actually sent by Chazal on a mission to make Yushkie-worship a completely different religion so that it could not be confused with Judaism.
So, after that, Paul embraced the new religion?
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:57 AM   #19
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I seriously doubt the story is true, but under the theory that it is, he would have had to "go all the way," and make it look like he embraced the religion so that he wouldn't blow his cover.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 12:24 PM   #20
mosheh5769
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Ok, but don't forget that he is the one who created ******ian theology. So, if the story is true (I also have some doubts), when he was sent by Chazal, he went with good intentions. but finally, I don't know when, where and how, he embraced the new religion I was fighting. He was sent to fjght them and finally he joinded them. This is a message relevent for us. We need o be careful when we are in contact with people of other religion and belief. We need to have a strong faith if we don't want to end like this heretic man.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 01:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
Ok, but don't forget that he is the one who created ******ian theology. So, if the story is true (I also have some doubts), when he was sent by Chazal, he went with good intentions. but finally, I don't know when, where and how, he embraced the new religion I was fighting. He was sent to fjght them and finally he joinded them. This is a message relevent for us. We need o be careful when we are in contact with people of other religion and belief. We need to have a strong faith if we don't want to end like this heretic man.
Except that A.) The story has no source that I know of, and B.) your addition definitely has no source whatsoever.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 05:36 PM   #22
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your addition definitely has no source whatsoever.
Yes it has. The source is the NT (the ******ian book). I know, it is not reliable, but it's a source.

According to this definitely non-Jewish book, his mission was to persecute the first Nazarenes. On his road to Damas, Yashke appearded to him in a vision and he embraced the religion and system of belief he was persecuting. We must verify in the ******ian Bible. But I don't have this non-Jewish book and I will be surprised to hear that someone on this board has the book in is bookcase. Needless to say that it is forbidden to have this book at home or even read it. All I know I have heard or read on the internet
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Unread 08-23-2009, 11:11 PM   #23
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Not to revive a dead-end thread, but...

The implication is that the referenced originator never believed his own writings and remained Torah-observant, thus the Nishmas story (composed from discomfort caused by his mission).

There is a book published by Ktav "C***ity in Talmud and Midrash" that seems to shed some light on these kind of mysteries.

Also, this Shaul/Paul fellow might be confused with another founding father of the religion of Edom.

Dr. Shnayer Leiman "Jewish Perspectives on Early ******ianity - Nittel, the Ninth of Teves and Pope Simon Peter"

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lect...g_Beth_Abraham

I'm surprised no one has mentioned some of the Jewish sources that deal with this, although it hardly seems important...
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Unread 10-13-2009, 02:07 PM   #24
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Not to revive a dead-end thread, but...
Dr. Shnayer Leiman "Jewish Perspectives on Early ******ianity - Nittel, the Ninth of Teves and Pope Simon Peter"

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lect...g_Beth_Abraham

I'm surprised no one has mentioned some of the Jewish sources that deal with this, although it hardly seems important...
I think people here are confusing two Shimons, Shimon Peter [Chamor] and Shimon ben Shetach, both of whom have connections to early Xianity, at least in late midrashim.

1) Shimon ben Shetach is named as the teacher of Miriam's husband in Toledoth Yeshu, a medieval mishmash of legends about You-Know-Who's rise from being a mamzer ben niddah, through using guile to learn the proper pronunciation of YKVK so he could do magic, to become the Yoshke we all know and abhor. There's also a theory, which I think underlies the Toledoth Yeshu, that Yoshke lived about 100 years earlier than is popularly supposed, such that he was taught by Yehoshua b. Perachyah, who was a contemporary of Shimon b. Shetach.

2) Shimon Kepha (Peter) in the Midrash of Shimon Kepha (you can find it in Eisenstein's "Otzar haMidrashim" on Hebrewbooks.org) was the first Pope. According to the midrash, he was sent by Chazal to make sure Xianity developed into a totally alien religion. He was so ashamed of himself he lived as a hermit under a dome, hence the name Shimon Kippah. Kepha, rock, is the same as Peter (Petros, Gk for rock). Chamor was probably added by later writers trying to either hide the story, or who didn't realize that Peter was Greek for rock.

Dr Leiman's tape talks about these, at least the second one.

So if there's a story going around that Nishmas is from Yoshke, I'd doubt it extremely, but if it's associated with either of these two Shimons, then it does have a legendary connection to early Xianity.
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Unread 10-13-2009, 04:44 PM   #25
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There's also a theory, which I think underlies the Toledoth Yeshu, that Yoshke lived about 100 years earlier than is popularly supposed, such that he was taught by Yehoshua b. Perachyah, who was a contemporary of Shimon b. Shetach.
It's not a theory. The Gemarah speaks about Yeshu who was a disciple of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah, who effectively lived 100 years before Yoshke supposed to live (if he really existed).

Quote:
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Shimon Kepha (Peter) in the Midrash of Shimon Kepha (you can find it in Eisenstein's "Otzar haMidrashim" on Hebrewbooks.org) was the first Pope. According to the midrash, he was sent by Chazal to make sure Xianity developed into a totally alien religion. He was so ashamed of himself he lived as a hermit under a dome, hence the name Shimon Kippah. Kepha, rock, is the same as Peter (Petros, Gk for rock). Chamor was probably added by later writers trying to either hide the story, or who didn't realize that Peter was Greek for rock.
Someone in this discussion reported the same thing but identified that story with Paul and not Shimon. Anyway, both are key caracters in the heretic mythologic religion.

I have one question: did Yoshke really exist at the first place? There are many indications which tend to show that Yoshke is a mixture of many peoples as Yeshu ben Stada, ben Pandeira, the three false Messiahs Yehoudah from Galilee, Binyamin the Egyptian and Theuddas, and many mythological pagan deities like Osiris, Tammuz, Attis (if I have the right to mention their name) and many others. It's very troubling.
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