Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Lubavitch > The World of Lubavitch

View Poll Results: Should we "air our dirty laundry in public"?
Yes, it's the only way to get results. 0 0%
Only sometimes. 0 0%
Never. 0 0%
Not sure. 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 07-08-2009, 07:40 PM   #1
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
"Airing dirty laundry"

There are basically two ways of thinking when it comes to "airing dirty laundry in public," i.e., discussing faults in the community in a public forum--like this one, for example.

The first is that one shouldn't do this because it stains our reputation (further), creates a chillul Hashem, and thus the loss outweighs the gain.

The second is that most non-Lubavitchers know of these faults anyway, so we may as well publicly take a stand against this behavior in the hope that the violators will be embarrassed and desist from their shameful behavior. On the contrary, the protest itself sanctifies Hashem's Name, for it shows that we do not accept this behavior.

At first I thought the first way of thinking was correct, but now I'm not so sure. So what do others think?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 12:04 AM   #2
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
sometimes can be a Chillul Hashem
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 12:09 AM   #3
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Sometimes?
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 01:49 AM   #4
Smirnoff
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
... one shouldn't do this because it stains our reputation (further), creates a chillul Hashem, and thus the loss outweighs the gain.
My personal opinion.
Smirnoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 08:09 AM   #5
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
So according to the above second option, Boteach's recent article would be something that is praiseworthy. Correct?
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 08:24 AM   #6
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
So according yo the above second option, Boteach's recent article would be something that is praiseworthy. Correct?
I never read Boteach in last years, so after reading your comment I googled it up and read about Chabad.
I think it is something worthy to discuss. From whatever i see these are real problems and public forum is IMHO a good thing to talk about it, if it is done in respectful way (and IMHO Boteach writes respectfully).
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 09:15 AM   #7
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Poll function doesn't seem to work.

This is an "it depends" situation. For example, if a certain yeshiva has a serious drug problem (and I use this example because no real life place comes to mind, though one may certainly exist). On the one hand we would like to maintain the reputation of the students and teachers and continue telling the world that our children don't have such problems. On the other hand, the problem exists and requires community team work to achieve real relief.

In that example, where we are talking about children's health, possible pikuach nefesh, I believe the risks to the reputation of the school and children outweigh the benefits. Now, this does not mean that there is no limit to "airing the dirty laundry;" tact and ehrlichkeit are always called for. But there are some times when one's reputation needs to take a back seat to more important things.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 09:41 AM   #8
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
I think that "sometimes" could be a chillul Hashem

But ,I think that sometimes,like a child abuser,rl, has to be known, and remove this guy completely from the community
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:14 AM   #9
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
Like a child abuser,rl, has to be known, and remove this guy completely from the community
Another good example. Too little information can put people in danger, CH"V. Too much information can infringe on the privacy of the victims.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 01:21 PM   #10
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
Something worth considering:

The information is out there. There are no secrets. So whatever Chillul Hashem resulting from dissemination has already occured in most cases. It could be that the only Chillul Hashem left is that people say we are willfully blind to our problems. I think there might a Kiddush Hashem resulting from our pointing out our mailos, acknowledging the problems ALONG WITH constructive Chassidishe suggestions for improvements.

Maybe...
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 04:21 PM   #11
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Loshon Harah is still loshon harah if it is public knowledge. Just because something is known does not mean it is permissible to point out publicly or privately.

With that said - your point is well taken. Honesty and humility make for a big kiddush hashem.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 05:12 PM   #12
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
The question is if it's Loshon Harah for a benefit, which is allowed.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 06:41 PM   #13
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Why would loshon haroh on a forum such as this one ever constitute a benefit?
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 07:31 PM   #14
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Meshulam - don't you know that all the real movers and shakers in the L world peruse this site carefully (and sometimes - anxiously) to know what to do next? That Shluchim get policy from here? Etc etc? Which translates into the ultimate toeles...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 09:12 PM   #15
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Good Point.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 09:32 PM   #16
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Meshulam - don't you know that all the real movers and shakers in the L world peruse this site carefully (and sometimes - anxiously) to know what to do next? That Shluchim get policy from here? Etc etc? Which translates into the ultimate toeles...
Notwithstanding the sarcastic tone of that comment, I know of three or four people who are fairly "high up" in Lubavitch mosdos in the USA who are familiar with this site and look at it with some level of regularity. I doubt it shapes their policies in any grandiose manner, but I'm sure the discussions here do play a small role in their perception of what Lubavitch teens and stam Chassidim are thinking...
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 09:57 PM   #17
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
They probably look for the entertainment value.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:11 PM   #18
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maskil View Post
Notwithstanding the sarcastic tone of that comment, I know of three or four people who are fairly "high up" in Lubavitch mosdos in the USA who are familiar with this site and look at it with some level of regularity. I doubt it shapes their policies in any grandiose manner, but I'm sure the discussions here do play a small role in their perception of what Lubavitch teens and stam Chassidim are thinking...
A.) The slight possibility that someone will see what we're writing and that it will affect Lubavitch policy is not a good enough reason to engage in lashon haroh.

B.) Even in the above mentioned example of a child abuser, it still is unnecessary for the news to be broadcast on this forum. The fact that someone in Baltimore or Pittsburgh (just hypothetical examples) is a child molester has absolutely no bearings on the life of someone living in Toronto or New York. Lashon haroh doesn't acquire a toeles just because you really really don't like someone.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:20 PM   #19
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
A lot of people read this site and the various news sites. I don't think it's far fetched to suggest that discussing something in a widely read forum could be beneficial. Especially if it's anyway something that is widely known.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 10:29 PM   #20
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
most of ppl go to col ,but also

yes, lots of ppl come to this site , entertainment value or not, they get the message
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 11:19 PM   #21
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
I don't understand where people get off giving themselves heterim to engage in simple gossip based on the fact that something may be "widely known."
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2009, 11:44 PM   #22
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Hey, I wasn't dispensing heteirim; I was just discussing the issue.
Once something is widely known, it is no longer considered loshon horo, right?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2009, 12:08 AM   #23
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Often the things that are "widely known" are not as black and white as one would think. Therefore, I don't think think the "widely known" heter would apply.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2009, 12:32 AM   #24
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
or can be avak LH
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-10-2009, 08:38 AM   #25
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
I can also see the other side, which is that spreading community awareness of a somewhat less well-known problem can in the long term lead to change, whereas if the problem is not widely discussed, most people will not realize on their own that it is a problem, or that the problem is so significant, and so change will be much further away.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)? mendyt Lubavitch Minhagim 16 12-21-2010 01:27 PM
Rabbeinu "Gershom" or "Gershon"? Kookoo Kabalist The Rabbeim & Gedolei Yisroel 2 01-07-2009 10:21 PM
Chasidus-- "ANI"-- "Sovev" or "Memalay"? ailiyooyee Chassidus 5 04-22-2008 12:08 AM
The Niggunim: "Harabi Shlita" and "Chayolei" gezetzt The World of Lubavitch 93 02-12-2006 12:09 AM
"Sheyichyeh" or "Neiroy Yoir"?? Barera Lubavitch Minhagim 1 09-19-2004 02:42 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com