We are the Chosen People - Jewish Forum & Discussions

Jude · 07-22-2002, 05:50 PM

Hashem tells us that we are His am segula and the am hanivchar (chosen nation). We are called Hashem's firstborn or only child. There are plenty of sources that say that the Jewish people are the purpose of creation. (more on this in thread entitled Goyim).

The question is - how do you handle this in encounters with people who don't take well to this idea. Americans especially are particularly fond of equality and democracy, and look askance at elitist talk. Beating around the bush is not a good idea because it looks like you're evading the issue or are embarrassed by the answer. Answers that say: we are all G-d's creatures with different roles is true, but it avoids saying the truth, that we are the chosen people. So any ideas?

walter · 07-31-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jude

The question is - how do you handle this in encounters with people who don't take well to this idea. Americans especially are particularly fond of equality and democracy, and look askance at elitist talk. Beating around the bush is not a good idea because it looks like you're evading the issue or are embarrassed by the answer. Answers that say: we are all G-d's creatures with different roles is true, but it avoids saying the truth, that we are the chosen people. So any ideas?

It is important to the Jew to know "they" are G-d's first born,His chosen. This is binding and a heavy responsibility to those who take it to heart. It is not important are neccesary for a gentile to know that Jews are G-d's chosen. This particular relationship is between the Jew and their G-d. To discuss your personal status with non relating parties has the potential to invite envy and hatered by those who don't understand and who might believe Jews feel they are somehow better than they. This of course is not a "better" issue but one of divine will to fulfill His purpose.
Shalom,
walter

Jude · 07-31-2002, 10:11 PM

the intent of my question was how to explain this to the Jews that are encountered. But it's true, one meets gentiles too, and need a response for them. Actually, religious gentiles, i.e. ******ians, are very well aware of the Jews' status as the "chosen people," from the Bible. So I don't think it's personal in the sense of private, hush-hush. And yes, Jews are greater, as mentioned in the first post. We need to believe that gentiles are looking for us to provide guidance to them as the chosen people.

vusveisichuber · 08-01-2002, 04:16 AM

If the idea that we are greater than everyone else will turn someone away from any hope of listening, I don't think it would be correct to broach that subject - not to lie ch"v, but avoiding sensitive issues when it can only harm makes sense. When a newcomer, or potential newcomer, asks why women don't wear Tefilin (phylacteries), I don't think it appropriate or beneficial to get involved in practical Halacha. I would think it more appropriate to discuss the great stature of women in Judaism, etc. Eventually, when it is beneficial, the wider range of ideas can be discussed.

walter · 08-01-2002, 07:19 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jude
And yes, Jews are greater, as mentioned in the first post.

To say Jews are "greater" than gentiles seems to be a little misleading. The Jew is "differant" in the sense G-d's covenant demands a relationship apart from the goyim that has the potential to transform the world. Great, greater, and greatest are not terms that a hasid should concern themself with. By nature the gentile soul rules by this great, greater, and greatest mentallity. This "greater" mentallity inspires hate and encourages boundries that are not beneficial to the whole.

shalom,
walter

Jude · 08-01-2002, 11:31 AM

hiding from the truth doesn't make it any less true

rebayzl · 08-01-2002, 12:23 PM

If the truth needs to be hidden it lacks something.

walter · 08-01-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jude
hiding from the truth doesn't make it any less true

The Torah is very complex and can be understood on many differant levels. We must be careful not to do harm to those less knowledgable. Torah, if handled improperly can be used to hurt or mislead the seeker of truth. I can't think of any benefit that can come from statements like, "Jews are greater than gentiles." This is not the way of the hasid.
b'ahav
walter

Jude · 08-01-2002, 12:46 PM

truth that lacks something? is that not an oxymoron?

and anyway, great truths have been hidden, which is why they are called Sod (secret)

lambda · 08-01-2002, 01:06 PM

There is emes and there is EMES.

Jude · 08-01-2002, 01:11 PM

hey, that was one of my points in the Moral Relativism thread. Where were you when I needed you?

lambda · 08-01-2002, 01:42 PM

I was busy programming. Have you ever worked a 36 hour day?

Anyways, there's a relevant saying in Tzava'as HaRivash:

"Do not think that by worshipping with deveikus [cleaving to G-d] you are greater than another. You are like any other creature, created for the sake of His worship, blessed be He. G-d gave a mind to the other just as He gave a mind to you.

So what makes you superior to a worm? The worm serves the Creator with all its mind and strength! Man, too, is a worm and maggot, as it is written "I am a worm and no man." (Psalms 22:7) If G-d had not given you intelligence you would not be able to worship Him but like a worm. Thus you are no better than a worm, and certainly [no better] than [other] people. Bear in mind that you, the worm, and all other small creatures are considered as equals in the world. For all were created but have the ability given to them by the blessed Creator.

Always keep this matter in mind." (Section 12)

Jude · 08-01-2002, 02:45 PM

Far be it for me to question a statement in the Rivash, but just to clarify the point:
isn't that "if" a mighty big one? for G-d DID give man intelligence, and He DID give Israel free choice and enjoin them to choose good and keep the Torah, and G-d says time and again that "you are a holy nation, and G-d chose you" - Rashi says, you are holy because of your Fathers (the Avos) and in addition, G-d chose you (parshas Re'ei, 14:2 - among numerous other verses, some of which are mentioned in the Our Relationship with Goyim thread in Discuss Judaism). So how are these verses to be understood?
I think the answer is, there are two dimensions here, one - in which man and worm and all of creation are equal in that all are here to serve Him, and another - in which the Jewish nation are G-d's beloved.

vusveisichuber · 08-02-2002, 01:46 AM

Isn't the idea in Tzava'as HaRivash meant to restrain you from ch"v falling into gaiva (arrogance?)?

Any idea of greatness is supposed to be a mechayev not a poyter. (To be seen as obliging you to do more, not as an excuse to do less). When it says that the world was created for us - it is not to allow you to say "mine, mine, mine!", but rather to give you a sense of responsibility. On a down to earth level: You are a chosid of the Rebbe so you have to do more - or since you are a chosid, if ch"v you are a little lax, the Rebbe will "fix" it? The answer, of course, is a resounding you have to do more.

glad2bme · 03-12-2003, 10:08 PM

one sec...i know this is one of the first posts on this thread...isnt adam g-ds first born...and he aint jewish

Yankel Nosson · 03-12-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by glad2bme
...isnt adam g-ds first born...and he aint jewish

Who says Adam harishon wasn't Jewish?

hishtatchus · 03-12-2003, 11:49 PM

Avraham was the first Jew, no?

Dr. Yisroel · 03-13-2003, 03:59 AM

The truth hurts, people who are distant from it will shy away from it.

I often read many of the new medical write-ups. I can usually tell if a Jew wrote it or not. There is something about the Jews, that give them a deeper understanding, their research is far more advanced.

Every gentile that has come to grips with reality will tell you that the Jew is superior. Why did ****** (yemach shemom) feel it important to kill out the Jewish people before his world conquest? He wanted to take over the world, what did the puny, insignifcant Jew have to do with that. He and all others who risen up before him and after him have realized that in order to take over the world "to the Jew first".

Even the most liberal of individuals if truthfull with themselves would accept this. Of course it needs a little more elaboration.

Yankel Nosson · 03-13-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hishtatchus
Avraham was the first Jew, no?

Yes, but "atem k'ruyin adam, v'ayn ovdei kochavim k'ruyin adam"

(You [Yisroel] are called 'man' while the other nations are not called 'man'.)

Gevurah · 03-13-2003, 10:12 AM

adam was supposed to be Jewish but he blew it......erst erst
every human was supposed to be Jewish al pi Arizal...

Yankel Nosson · 03-13-2003, 11:00 AM

The neshomas of Yisrael are each 1/600,000 of Adam Harishon. So, Adam had the Jewish people within him. We've been spending the last 5,700 years weeding out the psoles.

glad2bme · 03-13-2003, 11:43 AM

but g-ds first born isnt jewish...if he was suppose to be or not?

Jude · 03-13-2003, 11:52 AM

the term "firstborn" is not meant literally! After all, Adam wasn't even born and anyway, G-d doesn't have children in the sense that humans do, of course!
and to comment on an earlier post, I would say that when the truth can't be told it's not the truth that is lacking, but the one on the receiving end that is lacking

walter · 03-13-2003, 03:18 PM

A true chosid sees everything in complete equanimity. It is said Moshiach will not judge by what is heard or said. He approaches everything and everyone in complete equanimity.

noahidelaws · 03-13-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jude
I would say that when the truth can't be told it's not the truth that is lacking, but the one on the receiving end that is lacking

BS"D So sometimes the objective truth shouldn't be told, and one should be dicreet and evasive so as not to overwhelm the listener with concepts that s/he can't handle! That's an important lesson indeed.

And even then, the listener is not necessarily lacking, i.e. blameworthy, but may well be simply a victim of the circumstances in which Hashem has placed him.

07-22-2002, 05:50 PM	#1
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	We are the Chosen People Hashem tells us that we are His am segula and the am hanivchar (chosen nation). We are called Hashem's firstborn or only child. There are plenty of sources that say that the Jewish people are the purpose of creation. (more on this in thread entitled Goyim). The question is - how do you handle this in encounters with people who don't take well to this idea. Americans especially are particularly fond of equality and democracy, and look askance at elitist talk. Beating around the bush is not a good idea because it looks like you're evading the issue or are embarrassed by the answer. Answers that say: we are all G-d's creatures with different roles is true, but it avoids saying the truth, that we are the chosen people. So any ideas? Last edited by Jude; 03-13-2003 at 11:44 AM.

08-01-2002, 04:16 AM	#4
vusveisichuber Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 293	If the idea that we are greater than everyone else will turn someone away from any hope of listening, I don't think it would be correct to broach that subject - not to lie ch"v, but avoiding sensitive issues when it can only harm makes sense. When a newcomer, or potential newcomer, asks why women don't wear Tefilin (phylacteries), I don't think it appropriate or beneficial to get involved in practical Halacha. I would think it more appropriate to discuss the great stature of women in Judaism, etc. Eventually, when it is beneficial, the wider range of ideas can be discussed. __________________ LA"D (Kimuvon)

08-01-2002, 07:19 AM	#5
walter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 193	Jews are greater? [quote]Originally posted by Jude And yes, Jews are greater, as mentioned in the first post. To say Jews are "greater" than gentiles seems to be a little misleading. The Jew is "differant" in the sense G-d's covenant demands a relationship apart from the goyim that has the potential to transform the world. Great, greater, and greatest are not terms that a hasid should concern themself with. By nature the gentile soul rules by this great, greater, and greatest mentallity. This "greater" mentallity inspires hate and encourages boundries that are not beneficial to the whole. shalom, walter __________________ ger ani ki ba'aretz al taster mimeni mitzvotsecha

08-01-2002, 12:46 PM	#9
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	truth that lacks something? is that not an oxymoron? and anyway, great truths have been hidden, which is why they are called Sod (secret) Last edited by Jude; 12-29-2003 at 05:39 PM.

08-01-2002, 02:45 PM	#13
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	Far be it for me to question a statement in the Rivash, but just to clarify the point: isn't that "if" a mighty big one? for G-d DID give man intelligence, and He DID give Israel free choice and enjoin them to choose good and keep the Torah, and G-d says time and again that "you are a holy nation, and G-d chose you" - Rashi says, you are holy because of your Fathers (the Avos) and in addition, G-d chose you (parshas Re'ei, 14:2 - among numerous other verses, some of which are mentioned in the Our Relationship with Goyim thread in Discuss Judaism). So how are these verses to be understood? I think the answer is, there are two dimensions here, one - in which man and worm and all of creation are equal in that all are here to serve Him, and another - in which the Jewish nation are G-d's beloved. Last edited by Jude; 03-13-2003 at 07:30 PM.

07-31-2002, 10:11 PM	#3
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	the intent of my question was how to explain this to the Jews that are encountered. But it's true, one meets gentiles too, and need a response for them. Actually, religious gentiles, i.e. *****ians, are very well aware of the Jews' status as the "chosen people," from the Bible. So I don't think it's personal in the sense of private, hush-hush. And yes, Jews are* greater, as mentioned in the first post. We need to believe that gentiles are looking for us to provide guidance to them as the chosen people.

08-01-2002, 11:31 AM	#6
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	hiding from the truth doesn't make it any less true

08-01-2002, 12:23 PM	#7
rebayzl Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,354	If the truth needs to be hidden it lacks something.

08-01-2002, 01:06 PM	#10
lambda Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,284	There is emes and there is EMES.

08-01-2002, 01:11 PM	#11
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	hey, that was one of my points in the Moral Relativism thread. Where were you when I needed you?

08-01-2002, 01:42 PM	#12
lambda Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,284	I was busy programming. Have you ever worked a 36 hour day? Anyways, there's a relevant saying in Tzava'as HaRivash: "Do not think that by worshipping with deveikus [cleaving to G-d] you are greater than another. You are like any other creature, created for the sake of His worship, blessed be He. G-d gave a mind to the other just as He gave a mind to you. So what makes you superior to a worm? The worm serves the Creator with all its mind and strength! Man, too, is a worm and maggot, as it is written "I am a worm and no man." (Psalms 22:7) If G-d had not given you intelligence you would not be able to worship Him but like a worm. Thus you are no better than a worm, and certainly [no better] than [other] people. Bear in mind that you, the worm, and all other small creatures are considered as equals in the world. For all were created but have the ability given to them by the blessed Creator. Always keep this matter in mind." (Section 12)

08-02-2002, 01:46 AM	#14
vusveisichuber Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 293	Isn't the idea in Tzava'as HaRivash meant to restrain you from ch"v falling into gaiva (arrogance?)? Any idea of greatness is supposed to be a mechayev not a poyter. (To be seen as obliging you to do more, not as an excuse to do less). When it says that the world was created for us - it is not to allow you to say "mine, mine, mine!", but rather to give you a sense of responsibility. On a down to earth level: You are a chosid of the Rebbe so you have to do more - or since you are a chosid, if ch"v you are a little lax, the Rebbe will "fix" it? The answer, of course, is a resounding you have to do more. __________________ LA"D (Kimuvon)

03-12-2003, 10:08 PM	#15
glad2bme Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 82	one sec...i know this is one of the first posts on this thread...isnt adam g-ds first born...and he aint jewish __________________ Smile its the curve that sets u straight=)

03-12-2003, 11:49 PM	#17
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,583	Avraham was the first Jew, no? __________________ n'eNow! ...did you do Rambam/Sefer Hamitzvos yet?

03-13-2003, 03:59 AM	#18
Dr. Yisroel Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 313	The truth hurts, people who are distant from it will shy away from it. I often read many of the new medical write-ups. I can usually tell if a Jew wrote it or not. There is something about the Jews, that give them a deeper understanding, their research is far more advanced. Every gentile that has come to grips with reality will tell you that the Jew is superior. Why did ****** (yemach shemom) feel it important to kill out the Jewish people before his world conquest? He wanted to take over the world, what did the puny, insignifcant Jew have to do with that. He and all others who risen up before him and after him have realized that in order to take over the world "to the Jew first". Even the most liberal of individuals if truthfull with themselves would accept this. Of course it needs a little more elaboration. __________________ Yisroel

03-13-2003, 10:12 AM	#20
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,025	adam was supposed to be Jewish but he blew it......erst erst every human was supposed to be Jewish al pi Arizal...

03-13-2003, 11:00 AM	#21
Yankel Nosson Senior Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 5,175	The neshomas of Yisrael are each 1/600,000 of Adam Harishon. So, Adam had the Jewish people within him. We've been spending the last 5,700 years weeding out the psoles. __________________ Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev

03-13-2003, 11:43 AM	#22
glad2bme Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 82	but g-ds first born isnt jewish...if he was suppose to be or not? __________________ Smile its the curve that sets u straight=)

03-13-2003, 11:52 AM	#23
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	the term "firstborn" is not meant literally! After all, Adam wasn't even born and anyway, G-d doesn't have children in the sense that humans do, of course! and to comment on an earlier post, I would say that when the truth can't be told it's not the truth that is lacking, but the one on the receiving end that is lacking Last edited by Jude; 03-13-2003 at 07:27 PM.

03-13-2003, 03:18 PM	#24
walter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 193	equalnimity? A true chosid sees everything in complete equanimity. It is said Moshiach will not judge by what is heard or said. He approaches everything and everyone in complete equanimity. __________________ ger ani ki ba'aretz al taster mimeni mitzvotsecha Last edited by walter; 03-14-2003 at 03:01 PM.

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