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Unread 02-15-2007, 07:59 PM   #1
Rafaelz
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Rav Kaduri letter about moshiach

In the last month in Israel there were rumors about secret letter by the mekubal Rav Kaduri published about the Moshiach. Wether the letter true or hox is not for for me to say but many intepetate it wrongly and i will try to put my view point if you do not mind.

The letter state: yarim ha am Ve yochichiach She divrey torato omdim, pney Moshe ke pney ha chama.

So I try to make sense if possible and I did the following :
if we divide the sentence to 3 places, first concerning the timing of his comming in this part : Yarim haam ( lift the people of Israel), meaning that he will come in time when Israel will be in great danger for its existence. Our time is by no mean plesent as the antisemites rise everywhere in the World.

second part, Yochiach ki torato emet ( prove that his Statements are true in real signs and acts), timing again: So he he will not come in a generation where all people are good and waiting for him, but on contrary, when most people are actually do not believe that he will ever come. like in our times where most pepole in Israel have forgatten about the Lord promise.

Last part, Pney Moshe Ke pney hachama, (as the face of Moses as the face of the sun)
I think this : Moses have got the Ten commands from God and they are place in the ark of the covenant. So the Moshiah need to restore the Brit (covenant) in the first act, in order to build God temple and bring back the covenant between Israel to God again for all pepole to see.

Extension to this part : ke pney ha chama (Face of the sun), mean that G-d truth will be seen under the sun to all to recognized and its will not be disputed by any (like you see the sun and you do not ask if it exist). By the same token as the hebrew slave in Egypt saw God wonders.

another way to see this is by the following: the brit between God and Israel is like the light of the sun to man, meaning that in the time of danger God will restore his light upon israel and his truth will not be contested any more

Who will he be? Well I say, who ever G-d send.. and let us all hope that very very soon.

If the letter true I think that this is the real meaning of the letter.

what do you think?
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Unread 02-18-2007, 12:51 AM   #2
chossidnistar
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I do not know about secret letters
Moschiach is coming at any second, this is a Jewish fact
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Unread 02-18-2007, 05:50 AM   #3
Frumkite
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Moschiach is coming at any second, this is a Jewish fact
You mean, "M could come at any second."
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Unread 02-18-2007, 05:05 PM   #4
JewishHiphop
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B"H

Did the Rav specify whether this letter is referring to Mashiach Ben Yosef or Mashiach Ben David? Also, is it possible that the Mashiach(s) may turn out to be women, according to Torah? Part of the reason I ask this is due to the following teaching of the Vilna Gaon z'l
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8) “Aiyeles hashachar — a radiant hind” (Tehillim 22:1). What follows is, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me” (Ibid. 2), which was the prayer of Queen Esther, who was Moshiach Ben Yosef; see further (#141). Based upon this Chazal have said that the redemption of Israel will be like aiyeles hashachar — the dawn (Yerushalmi, Brochos 81:1), and the entire matter is dealing with the beginning of the redemption, which is the role of Moshiach Ben Yosef. It is b’sod “aiyelah shluchah — a deer set free” (Bereishis 49:21), which is the line of Moshiach Ben Yosef on the level of “a sovereignty is his ox-like one” (Devarim 33:17), as Rabbeinu explained (Chavakuk, Ch. 2).
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Unread 02-19-2007, 01:27 AM   #5
DW Duke
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B"H

. . . is it possible that the Mashiach(s) may turn out to be women, according to Torah? Part of the reason I ask this is due to the following teaching of the Vilna Gaon z'l
No, not as far as Moshiach ben David is concerned, because a woman cannot carry the zera of a man and Moshiach will carry the zera of David HaMalech. Moreover, a woman cannot inherit pedigree rights, which is a requirement for a king of Israel. Moreover, all prophecies refer to a masculine moshiach ben David. There are other reasons but those are the ones that come immediately to mind. (Incidentally, the first two reasons are also two of the primary reasons we know that the Xtian messiah can't have been the one identified as Moshiach ben David in addition to the fact that he was not a desecendant of David's son Solomon. The same would be true for any modern day candidate.)

Last edited by DW Duke; 02-19-2007 at 11:28 AM.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 06:40 PM   #6
JewishHiphop
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No, not as far as Moshiach ben David is concerned, because a woman cannot carry the zera of a man and Moshiach will carry the zera of David HaMalech. Moreover, a woman cannot inherit pedigree rights, which is a requirement for a king of Israel. Moreover, all prophecies refer to a masculine moshiach ben David. There are other reasons but those are the ones that come immediately to mind. (Incidentally, the first two reasons are also two of the primary reasons we know that the Xtian messiah can't have been the one identified as Moshiach ben David in addition to the fact that he was not a desecendant of David's son Solomon. The same would be true for any modern day candidate.)
Why can't a woman be a descendant of King Solomon?
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Unread 02-19-2007, 10:25 PM   #7
DW Duke
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Why can't a woman be a descendant of King Solomon?
A woman can, but according to the teachings of xtianity J'sus was not.
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Unread 02-21-2007, 03:10 PM   #8
JewishHiphop
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A woman can, but according to the teachings of xtianity J'sus was not.
Shalom DWD, its true that the Rambam writes in his Mishne Torah that Mashiach will be a King (I.e. male)
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CHAPTER ELEVEN

1. In future time, the King Moshiach [1] will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the [Beis Ha]Mikdash and gather in the dispersed remnant of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will be reinstituted as in former times. We will offer sacrifices and observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars set forth in the Torah.
Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating: [Devarim 30:3-5]
And the Lord your G-d will bring back your captivity and have compassion upon you. He will return and gather you [from among all the nations].... Even if your dispersed ones are in the furthest reaches of the heavens, [from there will G-d gather you in].... G-d will bring you [to the land]....
http://home.primus.ca/~aharonbenjamin/gpage.html14.html

However, there are some other sources (such as the Vilna Gaon z'l) who apparently wrote in Kol HaTor that one incarnation of Mashiach Ben Yosef was Esther and I have heard that some others say also that Devorah the prophetess was an incarnation of Mashiach Ben Yosef etc., not to mention the writings of the Ramchal and the Arizal which refer to two Meshichim etc.

Do you see why someone could get confused about this?
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Unread 02-22-2007, 10:11 AM   #9
Gevurah
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Do you see why someone could get confused about this?
I wonder how you eat ?

Maybe the mods need to make a section called "NonChabadTalk"

I am serious as quoting bshem omru....it would not be wise for CHABADtalk to be quoted as the place of discussions that have nothing ...not even the word Chabad associated wherewith.
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Unread 02-22-2007, 12:48 PM   #10
Bittul
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Perhpas we are now ChabadislovTalk. Or BreslovitcherTalk. Or maybe soon the atheists will be allowed back in, and it can be RadlohTalk.
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Unread 02-22-2007, 03:16 PM   #11
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Perhpas we are now ChabadislovTalk. Or BreslovitcherTalk. Or maybe soon the atheists will be allowed back in, and it can be RadlohTalk.
Where does the prohibition on bringing non-chabad sources end? Only in ChabadTalk or does it also apply when in a chabad shul? At a shabbat seudah? (I saw many a litvak impressed by a chabadnik quoting a gr"a).

And when does the prohibition start? From the dor of the Ba'al hatanya? of the Besht? Pre-Besht sources are OK because the assumption is that the Rambam, et al. would all be chabad if they were alive now?
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Unread 02-22-2007, 04:20 PM   #12
Bittul
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Where/What/When is there a prohibition being discussed? This is about misnomers. Hashkafah.com has a proper name, it is about all Hashkafahs. If we are now about multiple hashkafos, let the name reflect that.
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Unread 02-22-2007, 05:02 PM   #13
JewishHiphop
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Originally Posted by Frumkite View Post
Where does the prohibition on bringing non-chabad sources end? Only in ChabadTalk or does it also apply when in a chabad shul? At a shabbat seudah? (I saw many a litvak impressed by a chabadnik quoting a gr"a).

And when does the prohibition start? From the dor of the Ba'al hatanya? of the Besht? Pre-Besht sources are OK because the assumption is that the Rambam, et al. would all be chabad if they were alive now?
Since when are Chabadniks against quoting other Torah sources other than Chabad? Are you guys really Lubavitchers?
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Unread 02-22-2007, 05:05 PM   #14
Bittul
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Why are you so defensive?
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Unread 02-22-2007, 07:52 PM   #15
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ChabakukTalk.
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Unread 02-22-2007, 10:30 PM   #16
Yair
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Dearest JewishHipHop,

Although I don't know the answer to your question, a good place to look would be in the sefer "Hilchoso LeMeishicho" by Rav Heller. It discusses aspects of moshiach as are brought down by the rishonim (mainly), and also discusses the identity of Moshiach ben Yosef (if I remember correctly). It is also quite lomdish, and I have seen it impress a litvak.

As for the issue of seforim chitzonim ie non-'chabad' sources, there is a clear shittoh behind this. Although in Nigleh DeTorah we usually address all opinions, in pnimius hatorah and kabbolah we are very careful to draw only from certain sources. This is because nigleh is based on seichel (so every shittoh is relevant because reasoning is universal) while kabboloh is based on Ruah HaKodesh. Thus Chabad Chassidus brings down strongly from the Kabboloh of the Arizal through Chaim Vital, the Maharal MiPrague and the Shaloh, while giving less consideration to teachings of, say, the other talmidim of the Ari (though parts of Emek Hamelech are an exception), the Ramchal, the Sulam, and (as you have discovered) the Gra. This is not Ch"V to say that their works are not one of the 'shivim ponim letorah', rather their works are coming from a different place and as such do not necessarily meld with the highly focused system of chabad thought.

Some people are very makpid not to learn such sforim (makes you wonder...), while others learn others instead, or would learn such sforim with a slightly different focus.


As for the (secret) letter from Rav Kaduri, I would be interested to hear more details. Is it published anywhere?

Last edited by Yair; 02-22-2007 at 10:31 PM. Reason: forgot to add this...
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Unread 02-25-2007, 02:37 PM   #17
JewishHiphop
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B"H

Shalom Yair, thank you for your post. It was pointed out by Shmully on another thread recently that the Rebbe does refer to Likutei Moharan in Likutei Sichot, in atleast one place (there may be others as well?)

With regards to the letter of Rav Kaduri, I would suggest you look at the following links for further info:
http://www.qeren.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=182&PN=1
http://moshiach.forumsplace.com/mess...ghlight=kaduri
Hatzlocha rabbah!
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Unread 02-25-2007, 07:25 PM   #18
Yair
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Good.

I checked, and Rav Heller's sefer in fact does not mention Moshiach ben Yosef.
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