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Unread 01-15-2007, 03:22 PM   #1
Asher23
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Join Date: Jan 2007
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Conversion???

I have in the past several years come to new conclusions, the foremost being that of the covenant which G-d made with us all through Noah:
The first time we see the word "bris," is in Bereishis , Chapter 6, Verse 18 - "...I will establish My bris with you..."

This Verse occurs BEFORE the Mabul , and G-d is giving Noach advance notice that a covenant between them would be forthcoming . AFTER the Mabul, after G-d orders Noach off the Teiva , G-d establishes this. Bereishis, Chapter 9, Verse 9 - "BEHOLD, I (G-d) establish My bris with you (Noach) AND WITH YOUR OFFSPRING AFTER YOU..." Which I conclude refers to everyone born since then.

A covenant is a contract, so all people are born into a contractual relationship with G-d regardless of their belief on this matter or not. Judaism and Noachism being covenants made by G-d with man and not being religions per say as they are not dependant on a person's belief on the matter, since G-d can create unilateral contracts without our prior consent, as we are His creations and must abide by His rules.

That being said I realize that when I am judged by G-d, it will be by the terms of that covenant and ignorance will be no excuse. I see that Noachism predates Judaism as it was given to all people as derech eretz before Sinai and so it is not required that a person must convert to Judaism unless so moved by G-d or their conscience to do so, and that it is perfectly acceptable to be in relationship with G-d via the Noachide covenant.

I was raised protestant, but have put that foolishness behind me and recognize the covenant which I am in, with and before HaShem, being summarized in the 7 statements of the Noachic covenant. This being between each individual and G-d, publicly swearing such things being nice, but really irrelevant.
I cannot see how it can be thought of as a religion at any point, as it is a covenant and therefore not legally contingent upon what an individual believes.

Quote: " Bereishis, Chapter 9, Verse 9 - "BEHOLD, I (G-d) establish My bris with you (Noach) AND WITH YOUR OFFSPRING AFTER YOU..."

I see that others have a different perspective:

Quote: " The midrash teaches that at the revelation of the Torah, the Ancient of Days asked Esau and Yishmael if they would accept the Torah. They refused. Who were "they"? They were bnai noach! Hence the Talmud teaches that the nations abandoned the brit bnai Noach. Simple logic. " (from wikinoah)

But do Esau and Yishmael then, who were ancestors of only a percentage
of the population, get to be representative of the whole human race? How can that be logical? That's like saying all Americans are jerks because one encountered an American who was a jerk. It is painting with a broad brush and generalizing.

To "cut a brit" before people to validate it has only a human value, as the way the scriptures lay it out, G-d cut a brit with us all at the beginning and there is nothing a person can do which will invalidate that, otherwise G-d's judgement would be arbitrary, which it cannot be.

So if a person is living out of harmony with that brit they are ultra vires and in violation of their contract, not then out of the contract. That is permanent.

So it would be a question of getting people to comprehend their existing position which they are out of phase with rather than getting them to convert to a new position. To cut a brit before a court would be like renewing vows then. Notwithstanding, you are already married in, but perhaps sketchy on the terms.

Bereishis:
9:11 - "and I will establish my covenant with you..."
9:12 - "and God said, this is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for OLAM (perpetual generations)..."
9:16 - "...and the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the EVERLASTING COVENANT between God and ... all flesh..."

This is a very specific story as a covenant needs to be, as it is a significant thing. G-d does not break His covenants with men, but men can break the covenant with G-d. Men can forget, but G-d cannot forget. If someone forgets that they owe a bank repayment for a loan, that covenant is not annulled due to their forgetfulness, or else we would have many amnesiacs. G-d's covenant was with all flesh, so how can Esau and Yishmael speak for all flesh?

If G-d was to break that covenant with all flesh due to their actions we would have no more rainbows, or else we would have a specific action of G-d to point to where He is quoted in the Torah that He is breaking that covenant. Not merely a vague and inferred commentary. That goes against all legal tradition and I am surprised to find it even being given serious consideration.

Everlasting (olam) is a very heavy statement.
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