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Unread 11-13-2009, 02:56 PM   #151
noahidelaws
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The Rebbe's opinion, quoted here at the beginning of this thread, is that mixed schooling is harmful in all respects: educationally, emotionally, and ethically. Anything else is brainwashing from the pro-pritzus sociologists.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 12:26 PM   #152
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The Rebbe's opinion, quoted here at the beginning of this thread, is that mixed schooling is harmful in all respects: educationally, emotionally, and ethically. Anything else is brainwashing from the pro-pritzus sociologists.
I'm sorry you've been so brainwashed as to not understand the delicate dynamics underlying the issue.

Is it true that there are benefits? yes. but those benefits are far, far more pronounced and uniform for girls than for boys.

That still isnt' a stira to what you said above, aside fro mthe fact that you are grossly exagerating and distorting the rebbes words, as is your custome.

the facts of the matter can be easily deduced from the sayings of chazal, at any rate. (including "it is not good that a man be alone"... boys who are "alone" ie without a woman, tend to be semi animals. this is, in essence, why boys are harmed by all boys schooling. Boys cannot survive moraly, ethicaly, emotionaly, or psychological without women being involved in their lives, preferably in the form of a mother or wife.)
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Unread 11-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #153
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Is it true that there are benefits? yes. but those benefits are far, far more pronounced and uniform for girls than for boys.
And what? A serial killer who help his grandmother is still a serial killer. Even if there is, as you seem to think, some good in mixed class, and what?

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That still isnt' a stira to what you said above, aside fro mthe fact that you are grossly exagerating and distorting the rebbes words, as is your custome.
Give us your interpretation of the Rebbe's words and we will see who distort them. This Shabbes, we have learned from the Dvar Malchus of Chayei Sarah that triying to interpret the Rebbe's words to make them fit our thinking is not how a Shaliach of the Rebbe behave. A Shaliach takes the Rebbe's words as they have been spoken by the Rebbe. All ChaZaL say that mixing boys and girls is wrong. There is nothing else to add.

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the facts of the matter can be easily deduced from the sayings of chazal, at any rate. (including "it is not good that a man be alone"... boys who are "alone" ie without a woman, tend to be semi animals. this is, in essence, why boys are harmed by all boys schooling. Boys cannot survive moraly, ethicaly, emotionaly, or psychological without women being involved in their lives, preferably in the form of a mother or wife.)
You have too long been exposed to sunlight. What you're saying is ridiculous from beginning to end. A boy of five years does not need a girlfriend. The only woman he primarly needs is his mother. I do not even know if it's worth responding to such nonsense. I'm even affraid to ask what kind of involvement of women in his life are you speaking about. I have a headache.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 02:49 PM   #154
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In all seriousness you are claiming that I am distorting the Rebbe's words and in fact he means the polar OPPOSITE of what he says black and white. It's outrageous to everyone, but why should we be surprised--you twist almost every topic of Torah and Chassidus discussed on the forum in this way. Hashem yeracheim.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 03:36 PM   #155
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In all seriousness you are claiming that I am distorting the Rebbe's words and in fact he means the polar OPPOSITE of what he says black and white. It's outrageous to everyone, but why should we be surprised--you twist almost every topic of Torah and Chassidus discussed on the forum in this way. Hashem yeracheim.
did I say that we should have mixed schools? no. My point is that the data is A more mixed than you present it, and B, "s that mixed schooling is harmful in all respects: educationally, emotionally, and ethically. " is not what the rebbe says, which is somewhat more nuanced.

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He will say, that before the last century, the norm was co-ed education. Any restrictions on it are recent, from right wing fanatics, who did not know the source material as well as he (- ktonton) does. Also, he clearly remembers a tshuva of an earlier century that clearly permits it, nay even encourages it, but chaval that a faulty memory does not have a reference to enable anyone to look it up.

Also, he has spoken to many rabbonim and educators - L and non L alike, and they all agree that there are no such restrictions in traditional halachik Judaism, and cannot explain the present norms. Even more, the experts claim it is good for the children, and we all know one has to listen to experts.

Let us add to the mix that we are talking about pre bar and bas mitzvah children, and the issue becomes so much easier.

Especially coupled with the known fact that all male enviroments lead to many sins (that need not be spelled out here), which everyone knows do not happen in a co-ed enviroment, and one wonders what those forbid it are thinking.

(Sources: One picks up a style, after a while. Just check out the tznius threads, and others).
stop being so hysterical. Before the turn of the last century, in most places women were hardly educated. as for moshe, chazal do NOT infact state that the genders should be segregated. . . try and find a source that actualy does say that.* (edit: except when drunk.)

My point is more that A it is not true that there are only positive benefits (as noahides claims. I have known bochurim whom I would not trust within a hundred miles of a boys only school) and B that doesn't really matter in terms of whether or not we should have boys only schools. I would think, that from most perspectives, the issue with having girlfriends outweighs the modest emotional/academic benefits accrued to the boy, and the damage done to the girls in the process certainly rules out such an approach.

WHy are the lot of you so entirely hysterical?
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Unread 11-15-2009, 03:49 PM   #156
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hysterical? outraged! now chazal also don't say to separate genders ... !
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Unread 11-15-2009, 04:09 PM   #157
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hysterical? outraged! now chazal also don't say to separate genders ... !
Fine, so find me a relevant quote in talmud or the midrashim.

(other than the obvious one about drunk people on simchas beis hashoeva)

maybe rambam thought it advisable, but A he's not chazal, but razal, and B even that isn't so clear.

(and perhaps if you hand me a quote, i'll hand you any of dozens of quotes and maisas about rabbanim chatting up women quite freely, even on subjects that current mores would dictate scrupulous avoidance)

personaly my suggestion would be to quote kiddushin 70 and 81, and refer to rashis pirush of 'so that they will not be accustomed to be amoungst men'... but the mashmaot of other mekorot explains shimush in a different fashion.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 04:39 PM   #158
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I have no patience for this. Dialoguing with you will only make you repeat more of these outrageous ideas in public. Hamegaleh ponim baTorah shelo khalacho ...
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Unread 11-15-2009, 06:29 PM   #159
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stop being so hysterical.
Hysterical? By writing a parody of your posts I am being hysterical? Please...
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Before the turn of the last century, in most places women were hardly educated.
Oh, shucks... there goes that argument.
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Unread 11-15-2009, 06:37 PM   #160
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Hysterical? By writing a parody of your posts I am being hysterical? Please...Oh, shucks... there goes that argument.
the source was quoted because it is, as a friend of mine put it, an awsome chance to imply that secular coed schools are "sexist" by not seperating boys and girls in their programs.

And hence it makes an excelent point in arguing to any secular person to send their kids to religious schools.

(and with regards to the boys it would be advisable to consider why they behave better...)

if you want i could actualy explain my understanding of what chazal's approach to these matters was, and why I believe that was changed by the rabbanim in the 18s in response to the haskalah and reform, instead of your generaly hysterical renditions of it.

and likewise in many of these cases, i'm just asking for people to realize that torah wasn't so cast iron about this, not because its a desireable change to make for the majority, but simply so that people bear in mind that some people are yotzi min haklal, as well as some situations or locations, and halacha bears that in mind.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 12:16 AM   #161
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if you want i could actualy explain
please! spare us!
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Unread 11-16-2009, 06:15 AM   #162
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did I say that we should have mixed schools? no. My point is that the data is A more mixed than you present it, and B, "s that mixed schooling is harmful in all respects: educationally, emotionally, and ethically. " is not what the rebbe says, which is somewhat more nuanced.



stop being so hysterical. Before the turn of the last century, in most places women were hardly educated. as for moshe, chazal do NOT infact state that the genders should be segregated. . . try and find a source that actualy does say that.* (edit: except when drunk.)

My point is more that A it is not true that there are only positive benefits (as noahides claims. I have known bochurim whom I would not trust within a hundred miles of a boys only school) and B that doesn't really matter in terms of whether or not we should have boys only schools. I would think, that from most perspectives, the issue with having girlfriends outweighs the modest emotional/academic benefits accrued to the boy, and the damage done to the girls in the process certainly rules out such an approach.

WHy are the lot of you so entirely hysterical?
Hashem Yishmor, we have someone worst than a Reformer on our board. Introduce such כפירה in our schools... What's up with you??? You are in a Crusade against the Rebbe, Chazal and the whole Jewry with such words...Don't you realize???
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Unread 11-16-2009, 06:23 AM   #163
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If the next step is to say that women can put on tefillin (despite the clear prohobition of Chazal), or that the voice of a woman is no nudity (despite Chazal have said that Kol b'Isha Erva), etc.. etc.. Spare us this and save your
saliva
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Unread 11-16-2009, 07:13 AM   #164
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Ktonton, this is something for you (and it comes from a non-Chasidc website, because you seem to think that we, as Chasidim, are brainwashed cocnerning that subject):

Playing with Fire; Tradition

"Rabbi Akiva said, jesting and lightheadedness accustom a person to immorality. The oral transmission is a protective fence for the Torah. Tithes are a protective fence for wealth. Vows are a protective fence for abstinence. A protective fence for wisdom is silence."

This mishna was authored by Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest sages of the Mishna. The Talmud tells us that he was an unlearned shepherd until the age of forty, at which time -- on the prompting of his wife -- he went off to study Torah. He began his career studying the aleph-bet with the youngest schoolchildren. Twenty four years later he returned home, leader of the generation, followed by thousands of students. He attributed all his Torah study to his wife's devotion (Talmud Kesuvos 62b). He met his death brutally at the hands of the Romans for teaching Torah publicly (Talmud Brachos 61b).

This mishna recommends a number of protective fences which safeguard or foster proper Torah observance. The first warns us to refrain from loose, unbridled behavior when in mixed company. The Talmud states -- in the context of adultery but in reference to all sins -- "A person does not sin unless a spirit of 'madness' enters him" (Sotah 3a). Anyone who thinks rationally -- who considers long term consequences rather than immediate gratification -- realizes that wickedness does not pay. One of the most basic tenets of Judaism is that we will be brought to task for all our actions (Fundamental 11 of Maimonides' 13), if not in this world then in the next. And Divine retribution will most certainly be more severe than the few moments of pleasure evil has to offer. Only if we do not allow ourselves to think consequences -- thanks to the "madness" of lightheadedness -- will we allow ourselves to live in blissful (if temporary) ignorance of this truism.

If there is any one area in which Judaism goes to an absolute extreme, it is the separation of the sexes. Traditionally, boys and girls from very young ages were sent to separate schools. In the synagogue men and women would pray on separate sides of a partition ('mechitza'). Mixed social gatherings and dating were almost non-existent. And, (as we know from "Fiddler on the Roof"), even marriages were prearranged by the parents, possibly through the meddling of a matchmaker. The prospective couple met briefly if at all before the "shidduch" was finalized. (Some of us might consider those the good old days. If it were only so easy -- and inexpensive... ;-)

Much of this practice has its basis in Jewish law. One illustrative example: A man and woman are forbidden to be alone together -- in a private setting where others are unlikely to intrude. This is certainly not an unfounded concern. But it goes further. This law is extended by the Rabbis to the earliest age a girl might be considered at risk with the opposite sex -- according to some opinions three years of age. Well now, there are certainly sick-o's out there; there's no doubt about that. But is it really necessary for the Rabbis to make such a blanket decree? Do the Rabbis really think that the average man cannot be trusted babysitting a three year old child?! Who do the Rabbis take us for?

Our Sages, however, as usual, understood human nature far better than we. This is one area in which Judaism tells us to run the other way as fast as we possibly can. Do not just trust yourself; you are playing with fire. There are no "safe" and "harmless" ways of engaging the opposite sex, just as there are no non-volatile ways of playing with dynamite. We cannot open Pandora's Box, assuming we can contain it afterwards. Be careful what we expose our children (and ourselves) to. Don't allow home entertainment to be a means of glorifying and inculcating us with sexual fantasies. And don't place young men in an environment in which they will waste all their energy and effort trying to impress members of the opposite sex. At least let our synagogues be a place of uninterrupted focus on prayer. And neither should we make young ladies feel that they are objects, that they are less "important" if they are not as attractive to men. Let young men and women concentrate on developing the talents of youth. They can consider marriage when they are emotionally and psychologically ready -- not when they are physically interested. The Torah says it straight. Its outlook has never been popular; there are many who would like to dismiss it as old-fashioned and anachronistic. But the Torah speaks truth, without shame or timidity -- and with no regard for public opinion. It is we who are not always willing to hear.


Question: dare you oppose this as well? Dare you say they are wrong and have misunderstood the Halakhah? Or that they have been brainwashed too? When I think you're in to 403 posts on this forum
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Unread 11-16-2009, 08:28 AM   #165
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If the next step is to say that women can put on tefillin (despite the clear prohobition of Chazal), or that the voice of a woman is no nudity (despite Chazal have said that Kol b'Isha Erva), etc.. etc..
Oh, all this was already discussed - see the threads...
Moshe, when posting from elsewhere - please supply the source.

Last edited by Torah613; 11-16-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 08:59 AM   #166
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Oh, all this was already - see the threads...
Amazing!

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Moshe, when posting from elsewhere - please supply the source.
Right, Torah.org was the source.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 09:28 AM   #167
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There's no point trying to convince him with facts or sources. He's made up his mind, and all sources to the contrary will be brushed away as in fact MEANING the exact opposite of what they actually say. Moreover, you will be accused of being ignorant and not nuanced, and, get this--twisting sources! Hashem yeracheim.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 01:44 PM   #168
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Ktonton, this is something for you (and it comes from a non-Chasidc website, because you seem to think that we, as Chasidim, are brainwashed cocnerning that subject):

Playing with Fire; Tradition

"Rabbi Akiva said, jesting and lightheadedness accustom a person to immorality. The oral transmission is a protective fence for the Torah. Tithes are a protective fence for wealth. Vows are a protective fence for abstinence. A protective fence for wisdom is silence."

This mishna was authored by Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest sages of the Mishna. The Talmud tells us that he was an unlearned shepherd until the age of forty, at which time -- on the prompting of his wife -- he went off to study Torah. He began his career studying the aleph-bet with the youngest schoolchildren. Twenty four years later he returned home, leader of the generation, followed by thousands of students. He attributed all his Torah study to his wife's devotion (Talmud Kesuvos 62b). He met his death brutally at the hands of the Romans for teaching Torah publicly (Talmud Brachos 61b).

This mishna recommends a number of protective fences which safeguard or foster proper Torah observance. The first warns us to refrain from loose, unbridled behavior when in mixed company. The Talmud states -- in the context of adultery but in reference to all sins -- "A person does not sin unless a spirit of 'madness' enters him" (Sotah 3a). Anyone who thinks rationally -- who considers long term consequences rather than immediate gratification -- realizes that wickedness does not pay. One of the most basic tenets of Judaism is that we will be brought to task for all our actions (Fundamental 11 of Maimonides' 13), if not in this world then in the next. And Divine retribution will most certainly be more severe than the few moments of pleasure evil has to offer. Only if we do not allow ourselves to think consequences -- thanks to the "madness" of lightheadedness -- will we allow ourselves to live in blissful (if temporary) ignorance of this truism.

If there is any one area in which Judaism goes to an absolute extreme, it is the separation of the sexes. Traditionally, boys and girls from very young ages were sent to separate schools. In the synagogue men and women would pray on separate sides of a partition ('mechitza'). Mixed social gatherings and dating were almost non-existent. And, (as we know from "Fiddler on the Roof"), even marriages were prearranged by the parents, possibly through the meddling of a matchmaker. The prospective couple met briefly if at all before the "shidduch" was finalized. (Some of us might consider those the good old days. If it were only so easy -- and inexpensive... ;-)

Much of this practice has its basis in Jewish law. One illustrative example: A man and woman are forbidden to be alone together -- in a private setting where others are unlikely to intrude. This is certainly not an unfounded concern. But it goes further. This law is extended by the Rabbis to the earliest age a girl might be considered at risk with the opposite sex -- according to some opinions three years of age. Well now, there are certainly sick-o's out there; there's no doubt about that. But is it really necessary for the Rabbis to make such a blanket decree? Do the Rabbis really think that the average man cannot be trusted babysitting a three year old child?! Who do the Rabbis take us for?

Our Sages, however, as usual, understood human nature far better than we. This is one area in which Judaism tells us to run the other way as fast as we possibly can. Do not just trust yourself; you are playing with fire. There are no "safe" and "harmless" ways of engaging the opposite sex, just as there are no non-volatile ways of playing with dynamite. We cannot open Pandora's Box, assuming we can contain it afterwards. Be careful what we expose our children (and ourselves) to. Don't allow home entertainment to be a means of glorifying and inculcating us with sexual fantasies. And don't place young men in an environment in which they will waste all their energy and effort trying to impress members of the opposite sex. At least let our synagogues be a place of uninterrupted focus on prayer. And neither should we make young ladies feel that they are objects, that they are less "important" if they are not as attractive to men. Let young men and women concentrate on developing the talents of youth. They can consider marriage when they are emotionally and psychologically ready -- not when they are physically interested. The Torah says it straight. Its outlook has never been popular; there are many who would like to dismiss it as old-fashioned and anachronistic. But the Torah speaks truth, without shame or timidity -- and with no regard for public opinion. It is we who are not always willing to hear.

Question: dare you oppose this as well? Dare you say they are wrong and have misunderstood the Halakhah? Or that they have been brainwashed too? When I think you're in to 403 posts on this forum
I am astounded that you would pass such amharatzus off as torah. Try actualy looking up the mekorot in shas and shulchan aruch that he refuses to give, I mean, why not?

the fact that, for instance, in europe men were accustomed to be washed by goyshe women in the bathhouse, as mentioned by mordechai, etc, and as tzitz eliezer states was with negiah?

or the fact that every single wedding in cracow was held with a special session, specificaly and only for the couple and every single non-married in the community, both men and women in the same room and likely at the same tables with no mechitza, as recorded by bayit chadash?

The fact that the gemorah relates that simchat beis hashoeva was origionaly cunducted without any sort of mechitza, which is the reason why the balcony was constructed in the first place?

the fact that "not meeting until the day before the wedding" is described as a "heter" by beit shmuel, and so on and so forth with most of his assertions?
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Unread 11-16-2009, 02:08 PM   #169
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You forgot to mention the mixed dancing...

I would request the same of you (as I did of Moshe) - for a boki like you, remazim are enough. For us mere mortals - assertions without sources are useless, so please be considerate so that we can do concerning your post as you write (concerning another post)
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actualy looking up the mekorot in shas and shulchan aruch that he refuses to give, I mean, why not?
If you think I will spent 5 minutes tracking down every remez of yours - fuggedaboutit - I actually have things to do.

קריינא דאיגרתא להוי פרונקא.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 02:44 PM   #170
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What I can't figure out is--why do you post here? Really, you'd find much more common ground with the posters on h.com, or the like.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 03:09 PM   #171
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I am astounded that you would pass such amharatzus off as torah. Try actualy looking up the mekorot in shas and shulchan aruch that he refuses to give, I mean, why not?

the fact that, for instance, in europe men were accustomed to be washed by goyshe women in the bathhouse, as mentioned by mordechai, etc, and as tzitz eliezer states was with negiah?
This can be tracked down starting with the remo to even haezer 21:5 He quotes mordechai, beit yosef asserted that a talmud toeh wrote it, but the remo and i think also the bayit chadash dissagree strongly.

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or the fact that every single wedding in cracow was held with a special session, specificaly and only for the couple and every single non-married in the community, both men and women in the same room and likely at the same tables with no mechitza, as recorded by bayit chadash?
shailot and teshuvot habach hachadashot

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The fact that the gemorah relates that simchat beis hashoeva was origionaly cunducted without any sort of mechitza, which is the reason why the balcony was constructed in the first place?
this source is well known. looking it up should not be hard.

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the fact that "not meeting until the day before the wedding" is described as a "heter" by beit shmuel, and so on and so forth with most of his assertions?
this is in even haezer somewhere in te fifties, i'm inclined to think 55, or 56 I looked it up when researching one of rabbi falk's book, where he made the same assertion, and found out that things were not at all as he said. I don't have time to track it down.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 03:13 PM   #172
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What I can't figure out is--why do you post here? Really, you'd find much more common ground with the posters on h.com, or the like.
One learns nothing from a psychophantic echo-chamber.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 03:37 PM   #173
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Bye bye Ktonton. Keep on sleeping...I think he is purposely posting such stupidity to become as quickly as possible a Platinum member.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 03:40 PM   #174
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And I mistakenly thought the thread was discussing co-ed schools.
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Unread 11-16-2009, 04:01 PM   #175
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the fact that "not meeting until the day before the wedding" is described as a "heter" by beit shmuel, and so on and so forth with most of his assertions?
this is in even haezer somewhere in te fifties, i'm inclined to think 55, or 56 I looked it up when researching one of rabbi falk's book, where he made the same assertion, and found out that things were not at all as he said. I don't have time to track it down.
Sheesh...you mean 35:2. What this has to do with anything, I have no idea.
Did someone advocate (here or elsewhere) being mekadesh a woman without seeing her first?
[I am avoiding being drawn into tangents, but even leshitoscho tangents should have a gvul. (I have no idea what R' Falk wrote, but I doubt he advocates that either...)].
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