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Unread 03-16-2002, 10:01 PM   #1
Ephy
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mixed schools

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Im a BT at a mixed jewish day school and I just found at the halacha of not walking between two women, i am having a very hard time keeping to this especially as my locker at school is inbetween two lockers of girls.
I need a practical way to get around this and i dont know what to do, if anyone has any suggestions it would be helpful... thanks.
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Unread 03-16-2002, 10:26 PM   #2
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Segregation – Urgent Halachic and Moral Imperative

Great Caution in Gender Segregation is Praiseworthy

(In religious schools which seek to cater for both genders) it is insufficient for boys and girls not to learn in the same classroom, but the school should be built such that each gender enters and leaves from a separate entrance. Furthermore, it is preferable that the two schools be housed in separate buildings and streets, for the greater the caution in such matters, the more one is praiseworthy.

Igros Kodesh Vol. 6 p. 33

All Schools Require Segregation

I emphasised that my demand for the principle of segregation in Chabad institutions is not exclusive to Chabad institutions, but my opinion is clear that the same applies to all schools. In this lowly, orphaned generation this is not merely a religious question but also one of ethics and modesty in the most simple sense. This can be seen in the institutions where this principle is not practised, where the disastrous consequences have increased to such an extent that despite every effort to conceal them and prevent unpleasant publicity, from time to time they break out and become communal knowledge.

Igros Kodesh Vol. 14 p. 433

Segregation Is Equally Necessary For Gentiles

This is not a matter exclusive to the Jewish religion, (although that alone should be more than enough) for gentiles have also in recent years begun to see the harm of mixed schooling. The alarming situation is well known to the teachers of these schools, but for understandable (though unacceptable) reasons it is hushed up. In any case, since ultimately the main thing is to fix the actual situation, [in your case] this matter could be approached differently. By increasing the number of students there will be a need [for a division of classes and] a new teacher, or at least an assistant teacher, and it is possible that if they sense that one is aiming for segregation, and for the above reason [i.e. the need for a division of classes], they will turn a blind eye to the true reason, for there will be an opening for an honourable retraction.

Igros Kodesh Vol. 16 p. 284

Segregation Is An Ethical and Educational Imperative

In reality, segregation is not merely a question of religion, but also an ethical and even an educational one, to which the heart readily consents, for the staggering devastation caused by co-education is well-known from an ethical and even a basic educational standpoint. The student’s attention is distracted from his studies, impinging on his academic progress... With the appropriate and persistent explanation, those who have the ability to correct this matter can surely be convinced to do so...

A man is compared to a tree. Just as even a tiny scratch in a soft sapling can cause a deformation in a large tree, so is it with a child. Thus alacrity is particularly needed in matters of education.

Igros Kodesh Vol. 17 p. 29

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Unread 03-16-2002, 10:39 PM   #3
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BH

You can wait until the girls have walked away from their locker, or you could get there before them, if they happen to walk in while you are there, you can simply close your locker and return a few minutes later complete what you were doing.


Is this a Chabad school?
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Unread 03-16-2002, 10:59 PM   #4
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What an interesting "moral dilemma"!
If you're in a co-ed school, you probably have bigger issues to deal with than staying out of the girls' way...
I'm sure you know what i mean.
If you're with these people every day, it's practically impossible to avoid it completely.
But since you asked--try your best, and try your best not to offend anyone either. Good Luck...
p.s.you can always ask one of your female neighbours to switch lockers with you...JK! :p
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Unread 03-17-2002, 12:39 AM   #5
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B"H
No, b.lew, it isn't a lubavitch school, thanks for the advise though

Last edited by Ephy; 04-11-2002 at 06:03 AM.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 12:42 AM   #6
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B"H

noahidelaws <Great Caution in Gender Segregation is Praiseworthy>
should i go to an all boys school that isn't Jewish?
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Unread 03-17-2002, 01:07 AM   #7
noahidelaws
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BS"D Since you ask - yes, definitely, an all boys school that isn't Jewish is preferable because attending a co-ed school certainly involves numerous transgressions of Jewish Law. Good luck!!
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Unread 03-17-2002, 01:32 AM   #8
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<<BS"D Since you ask - yes, definitely, an all boys school that isn't Jewish is preferable because attending a co-ed school certainly involves numerous transgressions of Jewish Law. Good luck!!>>

Whereas a non-Jewish school may be against the Torah!

And what about non-Jewish schools? Is that also not Ossur?

The following is from a response by the Rebbe in the Sefer Yagdil Torah page 233:

The title is "Chiyuv Hatzoloh MaiChinuch Kefirah - Afilu Lechinuch Sheaino Bishlaimus"

"...UBilvad shlo yitamei bain hoakum ulekabeil chinuch shel kefirah R"L"!!...

As far as I can see, the Rebbe was a lot more against going to non-Jewish schools than mixed schools.
(If you check up on the source, the next few letters are about studying in a non-Jewish school).
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Unread 03-17-2002, 01:48 AM   #9
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B"H

I know someone whose family was lubavitch and she was going to a mixed jewish day school and her parents sent a letter to ask what she should do and the Rebbe told them that she should go to a non jewish school that was all girls. BUt the shliach here told me not to tell that to my parents.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 02:46 AM   #10
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<<I know someone whose family was lubavitch and she was going to a mixed jewish day school and her parents sent a letter to ask what she should do and the Rebbe told them that she should go to a non jewish school that was all girls. BUt the shliach here told me not to tell that to my parents.>>

That's not a general Horo'oh, it was to a specific person. As mentioned in other posts, the Rebbe would on occasion send people to College or University... This doesn't make it right (or wrong).

It's not for us to decide whether one is suitable for non-Jewish schools.

I don't understand why you don't go to a school that IS Jewish and IS segregated? This would solve all issues.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 07:26 PM   #11
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Noahidelaws, your advice to Ephy is quite disturbing.
I am shocked that can suggest that a non Jewish school takes preference over a Jewish one.
If the Rebbe gave someone such instruction, that is obviously what was necessary for that individual. but it's far from being a desirable choice.
What comes first? the foundations of Yiddishkeit, a Jewish education, or chumros in tznius????
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Unread 03-17-2002, 07:46 PM   #12
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Indeed very disturbing, Chilul shabos, Kashrus, Avodah Zorah (if religous) or Kefirah (if secular). Most likely a only boy school belongs to church!!!
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Unread 03-17-2002, 08:13 PM   #13
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BS"D <<What comes first? the foundations of Yiddishkeit, a Jewish education, or chumros in tznius???? >>

WanderingJew - Going to a mixed school is not merely a matter of a "chumra" in tznius. It involves numerous transgressions of Scriptural prohibitions, and is therefore vehemently opposed by all the contemporary poskim. See also the Sichos in post # 2 above. A school which professes to represent Yiddishkeit but is fundamentally contrary to Halacha cannot possibly impart the foundations of Yiddishkeit and a Jewish education to anyone . Usually, if anything, it turns them off Yiddishkeit, as is evident from the staggering fallout rate in the Modern Orthodox community.

<<Whereas a non-Jewish school may be against the Torah! And what about non-Jewish schools? Is that also not Ossur? >>

If it is exposure to secular culture that so worries WanderingJew and BLewbavitch [i.e. the transgression of the Scriptural prohibitions in the pesukim of ‘al sifnu el ho’elilim’ and ‘lo sosuru acharei levavchem’, and b) descriptions of relationships between men and women which constitute a transgression of the Scriptural prohibition of ‘lo sosuru acharei levavchem’ – not to expose oneself to anything which arouses immoral thoughts] (which, as you have surely noticed, I have addressed in the Newspapers, radio, and television thread and the Goyishe Culture and Us thread) - then this secular culture is taught just the same in the kind of modern "orthodox" school that Ephy attends.

So although it is obviously highly undesirable, attending a segregated non-Jewish school is by far "the lesser of two evils", as it involves far fewer necessary transgressions of Halacha.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 08:30 PM   #14
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You harp nonstop on 2 prohibitions, the Torah has other 611 and 13 Ikrim non of them exactly in any Goyisha school. All your answers only focus on these 2 as if this is the whole Torah. Any modern orthodox school is prefferable to a Goyshe school.

Es Chatoe ani mazkir, being very idealistic in my youth I advised a teenager who his father forced him to go to college, not to go to Y.U. but instead to a Goysishe unversity. And R.L. he became enthralled with some missionary groups and from a frum boy became....

Its a burden I have to live with every day. So please the soul of Jewish childern is on those advisers!!! rather boys and girls than ******ianity

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Unread 03-17-2002, 08:50 PM   #15
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Just because that story had a sad ending doesn't prove you advised him wrongly!
Considering the Ki Sisa sicha (L.S. vol. 1) about how in one sense (teshuva), avoda zara is preferable to sitting on the fence, who's to say other than the Rebbe or perhaps a wise rav who can offer suitable guidance in individual cases?
Whether a compromised Jewish school (co-ed as well as many other problems) or not Jewish, not co-ed (but not a religious school), a Jewish child in such a school needs ongoing contact with someone to talk to, to help them out, keep them on track. Perhaps that, more than the fact that you recommended a secular university, would have made the difference.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 09:02 PM   #16
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BS"D Masbir - Chas vesholom - I never meant to suggest that one could attend a ******ian private school. There are non-religious, segregated private schools (and even state schools) to attend. And obviously, whatever happens, Ephy must continue to maintain contact with Lubavitchers and shluchim.
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Unread 03-17-2002, 10:40 PM   #17
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this is very interesting. i always thought that when you're on mivtzoyim, you should try your hardest to convince parents to send their children to jewish schools, even if they're mixed. yet here everyone seems to be saying the opposite! its very strange.

wouldnt it be better to go to a place where at least you know you'll be getting educated with in a jewish way of thinking, rather than going to a public school?
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Unread 03-17-2002, 10:53 PM   #18
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BS"D In a goyisher school at least the child know that what he is learning is goyish, and he knows that he is a yid and different. But in these modern "orthodox" schools, the poor kids are given the impression that the twisted mishmush they are receiving is itself acceptable according to Torah, which IMHO is far worse.
In other words, despite the fact that they are attended by Jews, such schools simply do not impart <<a jewish way of thinking>>, and if anything, the fact that it is taught by people who profess to be Jews, following the Jewish tradition, makes it far worse than if the child had been taught the same heresy in a non-Jewish framework.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:16 AM   #19
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<<<yet here everyone seems to be saying the opposite! its very strange.>>>

Not everyone, only 2 opinions.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:39 AM   #20
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<<<Just because that story had a sad ending doesn't prove you advised him wrongly!
Considering the Ki Sisa sicha (L.S. vol. 1) about how in one sense (teshuva), avoda zara is preferable to sitting on the fence, who's to say other than the Rebbe or perhaps a wise rav who can offer suitable guidance in individual cases? >>>

The advice was thoroughly wrong, and I am haunted by horrible the spector of Vhyeled enunu vonu Ani Bu?

A major collosial mistake! I am shocked by the facile comparison from Mod. ortho. school to ovdei baal? its major gratuitous overreach.

That Shicho is meant in nuanced Avode, its not meant to use simplisticly as a kind of statement: That its better a person should be completely secular than be Modern orthodox, this against Torah simply. An atheist is better than agnostic! Its ridiclous!

I heard from the Rebbe himself (a tape in English Yechidos with senator Luatenberg of New Jersey) telling him he should improve slowly from Reform to being Conservative! YES, even conservative is better and an improvement, and overhere we suddenly have super knaoim (zealets) that somehow don't reflect the Rebbes views. They exhibit a kind of take no prisoners world view which reminds me of satmar.

And in general coed school is not against Torah per se. and its not an Issur deiroiseh or derabonin per se.

I saw in a kuntres (published last year for Gimmel Tamuz) an telling ancadote. At a farbrengen in the early years(?) the woman were crowding in, so Reb Yochenon Gordon anounced: Woman stay out! when they didn't heed, he anounced a second time. After the third time. The Rebbe said: Genug, men hot shoin yotze geven far wiliamsburg! (enough, we already did enough for williamsburg).

I will say the same on this post (and others) Enough, we were Yotze for williamsburg!
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:44 AM   #21
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BS"D <<i always thought that when you're on mivtzoyim, you should try your hardest to convince parents to send their children to jewish schools, even if they're mixed. >> Perhaps this is true if the parents and the children are not BTs and if the child would attend a goyisher school he might marry out, ch"v. But Ephy appears to be someone who has rebelled (in a positive way )against his family and become observant, and is quite strong in his conviction. So it seems that the main concern for him is not that he might marry out ch"v, but that he wants to keep Halacha.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:54 AM   #22
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<<Perhaps this is true if the parents and the children are not BTs and if the child would attend a goyisher school he might marry out, ch"v. But Ephy appears to be someone who has rebelled (in a positive way )against his family and become observant, and is quite strong in his conviction. So it seems that the main concern for him is not that he might marry out ch"v, but that he wants to keep Halacha.>>

And because he already knows about the dangers in both, the Jewish school, and the non-Jewish school, (even if he didn't know before, he does now). Therefore what is the difference if he stays in the Jewish school or moves to the non-Jewish school (in the way you view it)?
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Unread 03-18-2002, 02:08 AM   #23
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BS"D <<And in general coed school is not against Torah per se. and its not an Issur deiroiseh or derabonin per se. >>

Again, I am utterly flabbergasted.

This involves a clear issur deoiraisa. In reality, there is no need to explain this, because I have already quoted over and over elsewhere that any influence which arouses immoral thoughts is forbidden mideoiraisa according to the posuk of Lo sosuru acharei levavchem ve'acharei ainaichem, on which Chazal say: “ve'acharei ainaichem – zu zenus (this is a thought of immoral relations)”. And the Sefer HaChinuch says that this is one of the six constant Mitzvos that apply equally to women too. And how are such thoughts aroused? “The evil inclination only controls a person by that which his eyes see.” (Sotah 8a)

And it is self-evident that, especially in the teenage years when the hormones are raging, coming into daily, close contact with the opposite gender, as is inevitable in any co-ed school, involves regular transgression of this prohibition for both boys and girls.
Should I have to bother proving something which is so obvious?

<<Therefore what is the difference if he stays in the Jewish school or moves to the non-Jewish school (in the way you view it)?>>

The difference is very simple: in the mixed school, he is under certain, constant attack from his Yetser through constant contact with girls, and in the segregated goyisher school, that is not the case.

Last edited by RavLub; 03-19-2002 at 12:55 AM.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 05:26 AM   #24
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B"H

Blew, "I don't understand why you don't go to a school that IS Jewish and IS segregated? This would solve all issues"

Thats a great idea and i wish i could do it, however... there is only one school like that in the city in which i live and my parents have a decision over what school i go to.

Masbir, "Most likely a only boy school belongs to church!!!"

There are only boys, no religon schools in this city, but i have to stay at the current school to the end of this year (that is december in the southern hemisphere) that is along time.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 08:20 AM   #25
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I was involved with a kid who went to a state boys high school In the southern hemisphere. at that time the only jewish high school was co-ed and I did not encourage him to go there. After high school he went to yeshiva and is now one of anash. I would suggest to ephy (as I suspect he and I are talking about the same city although now I am in the usa) to discuss this with a mashpia who is familiar with the situation at hand.
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