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Unread 04-18-2002, 07:20 AM   #51
masbir
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If its Halacha then there is no difference betwen a tzadik and an average person "haniglos lo'nu ve'levonenu ve'achryau kol adam yimshoch" (=the exotoric is for us and our childern and and every person shall follow it") (Tanya 39). If there is a difference why only a big tzadik can daaven late, its based on the mystical greatness of the tzaadik.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 09:56 AM   #52
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BS"D RavLub: I was just working from what rebayzl quoted. I assumed it was accurate. I should have looked it up first. (rebayzl - could you please provide as with the source, so we can verify it for ourselves?)

Yes, I also find the tone of rebayzl's questions disrespectful and objectionable. See questions of teenagers thread post #40 on the proper way to ask questions:

<<“Certainly, even when one does not understand a concept in Torah (including Nigleh deTorah), one must accept a concept before understanding it (“na’aseh koidem lenishma”), there may not be any doubt about the truth of the matter,

(In footnote 34: “And this is also recognisable in the manner and wording of his question, that there is no attitude of arrogance, heaven forbid. For he recognises that the fault is on his part, “if it is empty [i.e. if a certain point is not understood] it is from you” (Yerushalmi Paiah 1:5).)>>

<<the Rebbe rebuked him for providing ammunition to those who are looking for excuses to oppose Chabad>>

That's how I feel about raising this whole issue in this public forum! As Bittul wrote above: <<the story should not have been posted, because of misinterpretation>> I.e. if you are going to quote such an easily misinterpreted thing, than make 100% sure to explain it thoroughly, and if not it is better left out.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 10:05 AM   #53
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Ravlub,

I am sorry for all the grief I caused you.

I am still uncomfotable with your idea, because, as you see, people in the frame of mind conclude that Tzadikim are exempt from certain rules.

Also, I never for 1 second thought the the Rashab was looking Chas Veshalom at inappropriate drawings. But we know that we simple mortals have to stay away from Museums because we cannot be guarantied that we will be able to avoid looking. (Al Tevieinu Lyidey Nisoyon).

So my question is, why would the Rashab do such a thing (going to a Museum - NOT LOOKING AT inappropriate drawings), and why would the FR tells us about it?

The problem with people who think that Tzadikim have different rules is, that this makes the rules seem flexible, so people are not so carefull anymore (even knowing that they are NOT tzadikim). And when you bring Birur Hakelipot into the picture it gets really bad.

Last edited by rebayzl; 04-18-2002 at 02:24 PM.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 10:19 AM   #54
masbir
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Noah: Its not compareble. In Harav Weinbergs case he extrapolated on what the Rebbe called The F.R. a Novi, and he went a step further discussing the hypothetical possibility that the Rebbe will say something hepech hatorah (a very dangerous statement, I am shocked Harav Weinberg, a generaly cautios person, brought it up.)

In This case, its a printed sicha, to have an ostritch like atitude won't make the sicha disappear. Nothing in Lubavitch today is hidden, if you won't discusses it, it will be discussed by misnagdim if you want or not.

We can't wish thing away. We have to deal with it, and if someone has questions its not anyones buisness to tell him not to ask (so, his question should fester?) just answer as well as you can, this is why this site is here for. If someone can't answer he shouldn't attack the questioner ,just search harder for an anwer.

Last edited by masbir; 04-18-2002 at 11:45 AM.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 10:48 AM   #55
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BS”D masbir: I think I made myself clear: there is nothing wrong with wrestling with these tough issues, but the one raising them takes should be responsible and not raise them unless he knows for certain that he can explain them thoroughly. Otherwise, er macht kalye (his words have a negative effect).

Listen, I know with myself – there are many questions with which I have grappled that would never have occurred to many people I know, and I feel that in many ways, they are better off for it.

It's not as if everyone is already aware of all of these difficult questions. I have no doubt that many people have confronted with many such questions for the first time here on this forum.

My point is: what does the person walk away with, after leaving this site - questions, or answers? Well, that is why it is the responsibility of those who post such things. Anything which could be misunderstood must be thoroughly explained, although admittedly, it is not easy.

Furthermore, by posting inadequately explained information online, the damage can be much more far-reaching. If I am not mistaken, the Tzemach Tsedek said that anything which is bi’dfus (printed) is le’doirois (for all future generations). (I think there is more to that saying – does anyone know the whole thing?) All the moreso if it is posted online!!

Someone recently told me a vort in the name of the Kotzker Rebbe: “Not everything should be thought. Not everything which one thinks should be said. Not everything which one says should be written. Not everything which is written should be published.”

And I will add to that: “Not everything should be posted online...”
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Unread 04-18-2002, 11:46 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
How do you explain the fact that Tzadikim daven late and the Alter Rebbe (Mamoein Ketzorim) explains it in mystical terms based on the Tzadiks greatness versus the average person, and doesn't offer any explanation according Halacha?
1. Where is it in the Maamorim HaKtzorim.

2. The issue has other explanations Halachically (lately by R Heller)
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Unread 04-18-2002, 11:47 AM   #57
masbir
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I saw once a whole "paper" (someone sent me) on this story from some future p.h.dnick. Probably working on a book on it. Its out with all the questions.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 11:57 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
I saw once a whole "paper" (someone sent me) on this story from some future p.h.dnick. Probably working on a book on it. Its out with all the questions.
Which story?
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Unread 04-18-2002, 12:08 PM   #59
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<<but the one raising them takes should be responsible and not raise them unless he knows for certain that he can explain them thoroughly. >>

huh? what if the very reason the person is raising it is because he CAN'T explain it thoroughly, and this is precisely why he's raising it - to see if someone else CAN!
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Unread 04-18-2002, 12:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
I saw once a whole "paper" (someone sent me) on this story from some future p.h.dnick. Probably working on a book on it. Its out with all the questions.
The paper you refer to, or at least another on the topic:

"The Rebbe RaShAB and Sigmund Freud," Dr. Joseph H. Berke, Concord, Vol. 29, No.1, October 2000.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 12:51 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
If its Halacha then there is no difference betwen a tzadik and an average person "haniglos lo'nu ve'levonenu ve'achryau kol adam yimshoch" (=the exotoric is for us and our childern and and every person shall follow it") (Tanya 39). If there is a difference why only a big tzadik can daaven late, its based on the mystical greatness of the tzaadik.
Good. My objection was only regarding reasoning it from the maamor like that.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 01:12 PM   #62
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BS"D <<what if the very reason the person is raising it is because he CAN'T explain it thoroughly, and this is precisely why he's raising it - to see if someone else CAN!>

Well, it depends who. If it is a younger, less-informed person who is genuinely seeking an answer to a question, that is one thing. On the contrary - he should be encouraged to ask. But if it is someone older, more knowledgable, and therefore someone to whom people look for advice, then he should know that if he fails to provide answers for the questions he puts forward, it will cause disappointment and a chalishus in others. So he should be more cautious.

The first person to mention it simply wrote: <<The Rebbe Reshab visited Freud in Vienne in his famous odyssey of 5663 as written up in the Reshimos (and other sources.) >> With no explanation. And that person is obviously an older, learned person.

I know for a fact that there are many questions and issues that my different mashpi'im grapple with, but they have the good sense not to talk about it in public.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 01:14 PM   #63
masbir
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<<The Rebbe RaShAB and Sigmund Freud," Dr. Joseph H. Berke, Concord, Vol. 29, No.1, October 2000.>>>

Yes, its this. Wow, You really follow this stuff!
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Unread 04-18-2002, 03:36 PM   #64
masbir
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<<<Which story?>>The story of the Rebbe Resahb with Fr. (the half of the thread revolves around it)

Last edited by masbir; 04-18-2002 at 03:39 PM.
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Unread 04-18-2002, 03:43 PM   #65
masbir
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<<<The first person to mention it simply wrote: <<The Rebbe Reshab visited Freud in Vienne in his famous odyssey of 5663 as written up in the Reshimos (and other sources.) >> With no explanation>>.

This is my post, and I didn't raise any question, just used that as an example. Someone else raised the question and I answerd in another post (#18) what I think it means, so you can dislike may answer, but can't claim I raised any questions!
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Unread 04-18-2002, 04:04 PM   #66
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Rav Lub,

<<... That is to say, what we perceive as their "humanness," is actually an expression of their infinite capacity to bring the G-dly reality to the lowest levels of existence . Thus, what might appear as "weakness" is actually a manifestation of infinite greatness.>> (I think it's in post #38)

What are you referring to? The Neshomo, or the (physical) body?
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Unread 04-23-2002, 01:56 AM   #67
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Masbir,
Thanks for clarifying the rule of Horoas Sha'a by a Navi, I should have translated, but was a bit carried away. And yes, the Rebbe made it abundantly clear that if someone repeats something in his name, that is not consistent with Shulchan Aruch, DO NOT BELIEVE IT! On another occasion, the Rebbe stated: All I have in my world is the Shulchan Aruch, and also said - I am a Shulchan Aruch Yid. So Rabbi Weinberg's hypothetical scenario should not have been aired in public, as the Rebbe let him know the very next morning.

As for the concept of Aveira L'Shma (sinning for a higher purpose), although it is discussed in Polish Chassidic writings, I have never encountered it in the teachings of Chabad. The Chozeh of Lublin writes clearly, that even today there are Tzaddikim who are so in tune with Hashem's will, that they can conceivably sin when that serves a higher purpose. Reb Chaim of Volozhin writes very strongly against saying that there is someone nowadays on that level (he does not reject the concept, he simply says there is nobody today on that level). Apparently he saw a number of the early Seforim of Chassidic masters, and was reacting to this.

Later Polishe Seforim did not speak of this concept (at least not openly), and many criticized the Izhbitzer Rebbe (author of Mei HaShiloach - Rebbe of Reb Leibeleh Eiger) for broaching these ideas publicly. However, as I mentioned earlier, it does not appear to be an issue in Chabad. The Nesiei Chabad adhered at all times strictly to the Shulchan Aruch, the only exception being Zmanei Tefilla, which is explained both Halachically and Kaballistically, in a number of places (as mentioned in earlier posts).

As far as which paintings the Rebbeim viewed, the Frierdike Rebbe mentions a war scene, as well as a courtroom scene (in addition to the nature scenes BLew quoted), and even mentions the artist Raphael by name.

O.K. BACK TO THE ORIGINAL STORY

Nemichas HaRuach translates as lowliness of spirit, which relates more to disappointment and frustration, rather than depression or despondency (Atzvus - Mara Shechora). The prescription for this condition was rest and relaxation.

The lesson (possibly) that we can take from this, is to remember that ultimately any relationship with Hashem is a passive one, in which we are the recipients of Hashem's benevolence. Even though we are told that in order to "find" (matzasi) we must "exert" ourselves (yagati), our efforts are only to make ourselves suitable vessels for Divine revelation.

Being that we are finite creations, it is impossible for any of our deeds or efforts to bring us close to an Infinite Creator. It is only because He decided to make Himself accessible to us, that our behavior has any effect whatsoever. And even after all our efforts, we are told that "the ultimate [purpose of all] knowledge is to know how unknowable You are." Hashem can still choose to make himself known to us, but the most we can do is prepare for that revelation, so that it will be received in an inward manner (b'pnimiyus).

When a person expends tremendous effort in drawing close to Hashem, and still feels that he is infinitely distant, this can lead to disappointment and frustration, the result of which is to become dispirited. This can sometimes come from the thought that "my strength and the power of my hands has accomplished for me."

The answer is to "rest and relax," to realize that your efforts (yagati) are only a preparation for revelation (matzasi) which comes from above, and is received through passive self-negation (bittul). The same applies to Shlichus also, and any other ruchnius goals.

This concept is brought in many places in Chassidus, some examples are:

A) The revelation brought down by passively not sinning (Mitzvos Lo Taasei) is greater than that drawn down by good deeds (Mitzvos Asei),

B) Six days a week we work in a world in which G-dliness is concealed, in order to receive the revelations of Shabbos, we must rest,

C) In order to experience Divine awareness as a result of one's efforts (through Davening, Learning Torah, Doing Mitzvos etc.), one must have Bittul,

D) The revelations of the days of Moshiach and Ressurection of the Dead "are dependent on our actions and service throughout the entire period of exile (Tanya ch. 37)," and yet Chassidus explains that these revelations originate from a level where human actions have no effect, and the time of Redemption is known as "the day that is entirely Shabbos,"

as well as many other related themes.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This idea is very important in effective counseling. People often confuse what is in their control, and what things are in the hands of a Higher Authority. It is essential that a person have a clear sense of when (and how) it is appropriate to act, and when (and how) to passively accept with Bittul (as well as Emuna and Bitachon) those situations beyond their control. This would go a long way to relieve the mental stresses that are often the source of psychological dysfunction.

Last edited by RavLub; 05-06-2002 at 05:36 PM.
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Unread 04-23-2002, 07:50 AM   #68
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RAVLUB Wrote:

As far as which paintings the Rebbeim viewed, the Frierdike Rebbe mentions a war scene, as well as a courtroom scene (in addition to the nature scenes BLew quoted), and even mentions the artist Raphael by name.

Of course The Rebbeim did not look at Bad pictures, but when a friend of mine was trying to find those Pictures among Raphael's works, he was shocked to find how untzniusdik 90% of His paintings are.

So the question is:

Are we allowed to go into a museum to look at one clean picture while being in an environment that features mostly unclean ones?!

And what is the message in the fact that the Rebbe Rashab DID go to such a museum?

Last edited by rebayzl; 04-23-2002 at 07:52 AM.
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Unread 04-23-2002, 12:46 PM   #69
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BS"D Obviously we may not. Even if one could be sure that he would not be tempted, it would be ma'aris ayin.

OF COURSE the Rebbe Rashab was an exception. And perhaps that itself is the lesson - that we should realise the distance between us and the Rebbeim and not even think to attempt to compare ourselves to them.

On Tanya end of perek 8, the Rebbe explains that the Alter Rebbe is saying that only great Tsaddikim like the Rambam and the Ramban were capable of elevating secular studies by using them for avoidas Hashem.

This appears to be a similar inyan.

Could we please leave it at that?
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Unread 04-23-2002, 12:49 PM   #70
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<<<Could we please leave it at that?>>>

There is always the option of not reading this thread.
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Unread 04-23-2002, 01:46 PM   #71
rebayzl
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Quote:
Originally posted by noahidelaws
BS" OF COURSE the Rebbe Rashab was an exception. And perhaps that itself is the lesson - that we should realise the distance between us and the Rebbeim and not even think to attempt to compare ourselves to them.

Good Answer!

But in that case - why are we imitating other modes of behaviour by the Rebbe? If we know the distance - why imitate?
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Unread 04-23-2002, 02:04 PM   #72
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BS"D <<why are we imitating other modes of behaviour by the Rebbe? If we know the distance - why imitate>>

Indeed, we do not necessarily imitate the Rebbe's conduct, even when it does not appear questionable. So, if there is something in particular that you want to clarify, please raise it in the appropriate thread.

I ask of the other posters to please stick to the subject of the thread: counselling (and teens in particular). This story has raised various tangential issues which do not really belong here.
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Unread 04-23-2002, 10:14 PM   #73
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<<but when a friend of mine was trying to find those Pictures among Raphael's works, he was shocked to find how untzniusdik 90% of His paintings are.>>

I wonder why the Rebbe Rashab mentioned the name of the artist. Here was someone who was nichshal in seeing untzniusdike things, simply because he was trying to look up the pictures the Rebbe had referred to

About sticking to the topic: good point, it's just necessary to "tie up loose ends" here, and anyway, ravlub ended his post showing us the lesson to be learned re counseling.
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Unread 04-25-2002, 03:43 PM   #74
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BS"D I notice that the name of this thread was changed from "Counselling is Chassidish!" to "Is counselling for us?" I take it that this decision of the moderator was at least partially due to the source I quote in post #30 above, and RavLub's reservations.

So let us discuss this issue, because this is now the topic of the thread. (BTW to anyone joining this thread now, I highly recommend that you read over post #30 above before you continue.)

The attitude that prevails in the secular world is that the solution to any emotional problem is to consult a therapist. Anything less is deemed as irresponsible. As Torah Jews, we look to Torah for guidance in all matters of middois toivois. As Chassidim, we follow the teachings of Chassidus in particular on this matter. As Chassidei Chabad, we are taught that this is the province of the Mashpia/Rav = spiritual mentor.

The Mashpia must have several qualities:

1) He possesses knowledge of Halacha, Chassidus and Chassidishe stories and advice that give him unique insight into human nature.

2) He must be an example of the teachings that he stands for, so that he has the respect of the one consulting him.

3) This is a person who is understanding and compassionate with whom one feels comfortable, to whom one can open up and speak freely without fear of ridicule. In this respect, he is like a therapist.

4) He must have some sort of actual life experience in the matters that he counsels.

(I have merited to have several Mashpi’im who fit this description and I am most grateful to them for their guidance.)

Now, it seems that everyone agrees that this should be the norm for a Lubavitcher. The issue is really that there seem to be exceptional cases, and it is unclear which ones are in that category.

Now, flameonacoal writes that under certain circumstances, it is imperative to consult a therapist and a Mashpia is insufficient. Perhaps he or others could specify cases in which they think that this is necessary, and explain why?

Last edited by noahidelaws; 04-27-2002 at 03:15 PM.
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Unread 04-25-2002, 03:47 PM   #75
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actually, I pestered ravlub for ages to change it, thinking the original title inappropriate
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