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Unread 03-12-2002, 12:56 AM   #26
RavLub
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If I may jump in with my own two cents here, I have to agree with Noahide and Jude. Clearly, both the amount of learning and the approach to learning that the current system provides is inadequate as a basis for an entire lifetime.

A woman needs to know a great deal of practical halacha, for everyday life, and having learned it once needs periodic review (as do men). Even an ordained Poseik is not allowed to offer a Halachic ruling if he hasn't learned the subject matter in the last thirty days.

In addition, the regular and ongoing study of Chassidus is necessary for the fulfillment of the six constant Mitzvos, as the Rebbe points out in a number of places. The level of skill that most girls acquire by the end of one or two years of seminary, is rarely sufficient to enable independent study down the road.

This is besides the need for ongoing inspiration, in order to properly fill the role of Jewish mother and/or Shlucha of the Rebbe.

As to the issue of girls "going off," I personally know (or know of) too many post-seminary girls either in college (secular universities), or experimenting with things that they didn't dare try when they were in high school and more under their parents supervision.

This is an especially big problem with certain (not all) girls from "out-of-town" who take apartments in Crown Heights, ostensibly to work here and find shidduchim. The complete lack of supervision seems to generate a lot of nisyonos, which many are not able to withstand.

A stronger emphasis on continued learning, together with the necessary resources, would certainly go a long way to avoiding any such problems. More importantly, it would help generate a stronger commitment to Yiddishkeit in general, and to Chassidus and Chassidishkeit in particular, something that we would all benefit from.
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Unread 03-13-2002, 09:33 AM   #27
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in "The Educator's Handbook" based on directives by R' Hadakov, p. 193 it says "It is not fitting for men to teach girls, and women to teach boys, as this can lead to a variety of problems that are best avoided in the first place."

but men teaching in Chabad schools is the norm????
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Unread 03-13-2002, 09:46 AM   #28
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BS"D Well, that's not the Rebbe's shito, as is clear from post # 25.

I have read through most of that book, Jude, and I noticed many things that didn't fit the Rebbe's hashkofois and instructions. Oviously, it contains much invaluable pratical advice. The rule I follow is: if the Rebbe didn't publicly address a particular issue, follow the opinion of an elterer Chossid or the like. But if the Rebbe spoke about it I DON'T CARE WHO SAYS DIFFERENTLY. Yeah, throw tomatoes at me, call me a ba'al ga'avoh, I can take it.

This excerpt, written by Jude, from the Youth at Risk thread seems relevant here:

<<"boys have more of a chance at getting into another yeshiva if he is thrown out or drops out, girls have far slimmer alternatives">>

There simply are more yeshivos for boys to choose from, than schools for girls. Let's say a girl isn't making it in B.R. in Cr. Hts. Where is she to go? The other Lub. girls' high schools don't want B.R.'s "unsuccesses" ("failures" sounds so bad ...). But for boys, there are yeshivos that opened specifically to address the needs of those who require a more nuturing environment or a different kind of curriculum. Not that they're so plentiful either ...
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Unread 03-13-2002, 06:11 PM   #29
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<<There simply are more yeshivos for boys to choose from, than schools for girls. Let's say a girl isn't making it in B.R. in Cr. Hts. Where is she to go? The other Lub. girls' high schools don't want B.R.'s "unsuccesses" ("failures" sounds so bad ...). But for boys, there are yeshivos that opened specifically to address the needs of those who require a more nuturing environment or a different kind of curriculum. Not that they're so plentiful either ...>>

lets not forget the sem issue. there are so many yeshivos for boys to choose from, that cater to all sorts of differnt crowds, but by sems, they are mostly opposite extemes. not to mention the fact that they only take around 60 out of 130 girls or so...and not everyone is interested in one extemem, and they dont want to lower themselves to the other extreme, so they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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Unread 03-31-2002, 08:01 PM   #30
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There's a school for women called Drisha, in Manhattan. I'm not sure that all the staff are quite Orthodox, but the following is what a typical modern, professional, single woman has to say about it:

<<All of the classes at Drisha are similarly compelling, each in its own way. The school, founded in 1979 to afford women quality Jewish textual education, offers courses as diverse as "family planning in Jewish sources" to the philosophy of Maimonides. Hundreds of women make their way to Drisha each week, attesting to the growing appeal of Torah study for modern Jews.>>

the school offers classes on a high level, as they are attracting women with university degrees, although I'm sure many of the women are not that learned Jewishly. I think that 1) it's encouraging - because it shows that women are interested in challenging, text-based, "hands-on" (as opposed to passive) learning 2) it might serve as a kind of model for what could be offered to Lubavitchers

Here is their mission statement:

<<Drisha's mission is to build a vibrant Jewish community of individuals whose thinking and behavior are grounded in Jewish texts. A critical step toward this communal transformation is for women to cultivate their own intellectual gifts and access Jewish texts directly. Drisha is renowned worldwide for its unique learning environment that encourages seriousness of purpose, free inquiry, and respect for classical Jewish texts and ideas.

Drisha is making its mark on the international Jewish community by attracting and preparing women for positions of leadership. We take great pride in the number of Drisha students and alumnae who now serve as scholars, teachers, and role models in a wide variety of settings throughout the world.>>

does anybody out there have firsthand experience with Drisha?

Last edited by Jude; 03-31-2002 at 08:15 PM.
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Unread 03-31-2002, 11:04 PM   #31
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Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is DRISHA which went a bit too far and started crossing the lines when it came to women's roles in Judaism, including the Rabbinate...
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Unread 03-31-2002, 11:51 PM   #32
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I don't see that in their literature, though it could very well be that some who attended their school have. I am not coming to recommend Drisha to anyone. My sole purpose in referring to it, was, as I wrote, to see that such a model exists, and is popular (with 1000 people attending over a year's time).
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Unread 03-31-2002, 11:55 PM   #33
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BS"D Yes Jude, we could learn from and emulate the good that they are doing. "The jealousy of scholars increases wisdom."
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Unread 03-31-2002, 11:56 PM   #34
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Yes, you're right on that point. I just want to point out that no one here should make the mistake of thinking that Drisha is being recommended.
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Unread 04-08-2002, 06:26 AM   #35
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BS"D ChabadTalk junkies: Tell me what you think of this link:

http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/57...20halachah.pdf

It is about training women in Taharas Hamishpocho in great depth, giving them the right to speak with a certain amount of authority about what they have been taught, but with the knowledge that any issue which is unclear to them must be brought before Rabbonim.

Although this is a departure from tradition, the author thinks it is justified in light of the fact that a very high percentage of women are reluctant to ask intimate Taharas Hamishpocho questions from men.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 04-08-2002 at 10:58 PM.
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Unread 04-08-2002, 09:41 AM   #36
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I read the article a while back, and es shmekt fun feminism. Do these same women who are embarrassed to consult a rav, use female doctors exclusively? This is an example of false modesty which is being used ostensibly to promote Torah. As you said, it's a break with tradition, and unless it's somebody of the caliber of R' Yehuda Ha'Nassi who makes that break, forget it!

There was an article in Lifestyle magazine about women serving as mashgichos which was very interesting. In this case, women are perfectly acceptable in this role (they do it at home!), although what bothered me about it was the role of the woman in the workplace. She describes what her job is like, and emphasizes the interpersonal aspect of her job. So she has to deal with men, some of them lowlives in the kitchen, and she's had run-ins too, so all in all, I don't think this is a great job either. But it doesn't flirt with halacha as in the previous article.
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Unread 04-08-2002, 10:33 AM   #37
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I think the opposite (to Judes inclination of emulating Drisha and spurning Tharas Hmishpacha.)

After all Learning Torah and Gemarrah beyuin is after all (even after the Gedollei Yisroel and The Rebbe broshem decided so) an abrogation of an open Halacha in Shilchon Aruch and the Gedolei Yisroel, and broshom the Rebbe, did what they did b.c. of Eis Lasois; but I dont see that the Rebbe molded B.R. into a full fledged Yeshiva style system, and to me Drishe "shmekt fun feminism".

On the other hand. REb. Henkins scheme is in the cause of encouraging some lax woman in observing Tharas Hmishpacha. And in truth woman HAVE to learn these Halachas anyway and learn them well since they are Halachas Hatzrichos. The argument of false modesty is fine and dandy and correct, but what if a not so observant woman has that wrongheaded feeling, that with a secular doctor she feels comfortable to discuss the pedestrian and profane aspects of her life and body, but with A Rabbi with an aura of holiness -- she feels squemish? This can save hundreds of woman from that terrible sin!

Also today I think there is a women in C.H. who engages in diagnosis for Rabbonim.
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Unread 04-08-2002, 10:55 AM   #38
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I agree that Drisha has a feminist flavor, but it comes from the kind of person who attends and the type of people who teach there, and is not due to the nature of the organization.
The only reason I mentioned the institution was to support the idea of a formal framework for post seminary learning, and to show that it's done and is quite popular. (Beis Rivka used to have a post seminary for women, but I'm under the impression it no longer exists, though now there's the Beis Medrash L'Nashim in 770. The classes in both places were/are attended almost exclusively by married women, including some bubbies. This thread is focusing on post-seminary, not yet marrried or newly married women)

And there's certainly nothing wrong with consulting with a woman about a halachic area she knows something about. So if I make a mistake in the kitchen and I think my mother, mashpia, sister, friend etc. might know the answer, I can ask them. There is no chiyuv, as far as I know, to ask a rav about those things stated in Shulchan Aruch. Whoever knows, knows.
But to actually train women for the purpose of supplanting, or almost supplanting the rav, is wrong.
In my opinion, if a woman has a particular interest in halacha, and individually decides to pursue it, fine. But to institutionalize it, with courses etc. so that one can attain a made-up title, seems wrong to me.
Once schools for girls were established in the early 1900's for women, and a formal education for females was institutionalized, then more of the same (seminary and post-seminary) is not a break with the past.
So maybe down the road a couple of decades, this women's training program will be seen in that light? Perhaps. But the ones sanctioning it are not the likes of the Gerrer Rebbe and the Chofetz Chaim ...

and as far as "squeamish" women, it's nothing new, not just for not-quite-observant. There are many eitzos: have your husband take care of it, interact with the rabbi's wife and use her as go-between, or as in Cr. Hts. - with certain shailos, complete anonymity, with no personal contact at all. This is not a new "problem" which needs new "solutions" as some letters to the editor which followed the OU article confirmed.

Last edited by Jude; 04-08-2002 at 01:26 PM.
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Unread 05-23-2002, 07:03 PM   #39
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Re: Men teaching women/girls

Quote:
Originally posted by noahidelaws
BS"D
You never know what you find when you search. This is really very clear:

It is both desirable and necessary to have someone speak often before the women in the N'shei Chabad organization. (Analyse Hilchos Talmud Torah of the Alter Rebbe, end of ch. 1). If a man will succeed more at this, he should speak, and even in a situation of doubt. (emphases in original)

Yagdil Torah, Eretz HaKodesh vol. 6 p. 2584, cited in Sha'arei Halocho Uminhog vol. 3 p. 159.
Someone pointed this out to me, and I just thought I might comment on it.

If you'll notice, the Rebbe never says that women listen more to men. the Rebbe doesnt say that women are more likely to become better after hearing a man speak-what the Rebbe clearly says is that IF a man would be more effective, then go for it. On the other hand, if a woman would be better, then ya'allah-ask her to speak.
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Unread 05-23-2002, 09:21 PM   #40
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BS"D So what DOES it mean then?

Well, IMHO the Rebbe SEEMS to be saying that there is reason to think that when a man speaks, his words are more accepted (in this case, by women and girls) than a woman who would say the very same thing.

And the Rebbe does not differentiate between the subject matter. Although perhaps it could be interpreted that way.

I.e. perhaps if the subject was some kind of controversial women's issue, women would more readily accept an opinion expressed by another woman who knows personally what (apparent) sacrifices and difficulties are involved in following the Torah's guidelines.

Or if it something more personal, like hilchos taharas hamishpocho (which dovetails nicely into the previously discussed issue of "yoiatsois", which btw wasn't really resolved), which is very personal and so women would rather have another female explain it to them, (aside from the tsnius aspect). (In fact, in Likkutei Sichos vol. 27 p. 357, the Rebbe says that this subject should be taught to women by women.)

But if it is simply a general d'var Torah - a drosho, Hilchos Shabbos, Chassidus or whatever, the Rebbe seems to be saying here that a man's words would be more well-received.

This seems also to be an endorsement and encouragement to employ male teachers in girls' high schools/seminaries.

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Unread 05-24-2002, 01:31 PM   #41
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<<Well, IMHO the Rebbe SEEMS to be saying that there is reason to think that when a man speaks, his words are more accepted (in this case, by women and girls) than a woman who would say the very same thing. >>

Well, this is what the Rebbe is saying "...If a man will succeed more at this..."

Those are the words, you cant argue with them. The Rebbe didnt say that those words will be accepted, or that there's a better chance of acceptance. It seems to me that the "If" is being overlooked.

Again, it depends on what's being said. Not neccesarily will some things be accepted more if a man says it (come to think of it, sometimes it doesnt really matter who says it-nobody is listening...)

< This seems also to be an endorsement and encouragement to employ male teachers in girls' high schools/seminaries.>

Again, it depends on what subject, but in general-I dont have a problem with that issue.
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Unread 05-25-2002, 08:48 AM   #42
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BS"D<<The Rebbe didnt say that those words will be accepted, or that there's a better chance of acceptance.>>

Okay. True, the Rebbe doesn't make a blanket statement that a male teacher's words will ALWAYS be more effective. But at the least, the Rebbe does seem to be saying that there is reason to think that in certain circumstances it will. Perhaps someone can speculate as to what such circumstances might be?
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Unread 06-17-2002, 05:27 PM   #43
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one aspect of women's education which I feel is lacking, is something I heard about in a lecture a year ago. The speaker called it "Toras Imecha" and pointed out that although a girl's education includes meforshim like Rashi and Ramban, Nach, and halacha, the important quality of "Toras Imecha" is not there. It is this quality that used to be conveyed mother to daughter. It seems that if the emotional side of Yiddishkeit is conveyed, the intellectual side is missing, and if the intellectual side is there, the emotional side is lacking.
To illustrate: today a well educated girl can read a perek of Tehillim and look in Metzudas Dovid and Rashi and understand the pesukim. But this is a far cry from the lesson conveyed by the Bubby crying over the Tehillim which she probably couldn't even explain!
Why is it that Bubby cried when she didn't understand it, while our increased knowledge doesn't bring on the tears? Isn't this paradoxical? Wouldn't you think that by knowing what it means, you would be MORE likely to cry? How can you cry over something you don't understand?
And idea ideas about how to formally teach the gefil of Yiddishkeit, or is it still up to the home to provide this?
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Unread 08-26-2002, 07:13 PM   #44
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Often you have to bring the Bubby into the classroom...

An eltere Chossid can sometimes come in and tell a powerful personal story, which hits home.

Writing assignments encourage students to THINK about the material, and topics such as "Describe a scenario in the modern day world which can compare to the situation in which Dovid wrote this Kapitel" may awaken a spark.

Using Niggunim is often a powerful gateway to the Neshama.

Turn off the lights, sit down in a circle (the floor is usually more conducive to openness than in chairs) and Farbreng about it!

Show videos of the Rebbe saying Tehillim.

And the best idea of all- have the teacher make sure that he/she is a Dugma Chaya. If students see the teacher saying Tehillim with an enthusiasm in Shul, during recess, or whatever- that will make the most powerful impression of all.
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Unread 04-25-2009, 07:32 PM   #45
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You know, once upon a time, girls picked up yirat Shamayim at home, and the boys were the ones who needed to sit and study all day in order to reach half the level of their sisters/wives.

If today's home were better built, we could have it the same way.

Also, the "Beis Medrash L'nashim" is almost always watered-down, so that only the weaker students will attend. The smartest will just pick up a sefer and learn on their own (ditto for the smartest boys).

You're also not taking into account that often, girls have "better" things to do with their time than learn. If your wife was a serious learner, ask her how many times she found a chavrusa versus how many times she ended up on her own because "you don't need to learn if you don't have to". With bochurim, shopping and clothes are less of an issue, so they end up spending more time with their sfarim by default.

(Prime examples: my brother versus my sister- he makes fun of her makeup, shopping, hairstyling, and clothes, because honestly, in his opinion- who needs it? Better to sit and study- in his opinion, unless she knows as much halacha and chassidus as him and myself [the rabbanim of the family], she's an ignoramus. Go explain to him that his sister has different priorities than he does...)
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Unread 04-25-2009, 10:10 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RavLub View Post
If I may jump in with my own two cents here, I have to agree with Noahide and Jude. Clearly, both the amount of learning and the approach to learning that the current system provides is inadequate as a basis for an entire lifetime.

A woman needs to know a great deal of practical halacha, for everyday life, and having learned it once needs periodic review (as do men). Even an ordained Poseik is not allowed to offer a Halachic ruling if he hasn't learned the subject matter in the last thirty days.

In addition, the regular and ongoing study of Chassidus is necessary for the fulfillment of the six constant Mitzvos, as the Rebbe points out in a number of places. The level of skill that most girls acquire by the end of one or two years of seminary, is rarely sufficient to enable independent study down the road.

This is besides the need for ongoing inspiration, in order to properly fill the role of Jewish mother and/or Shlucha of the Rebbe.

As to the issue of girls "going off," I personally know (or know of) too many post-seminary girls either in college (secular universities), or experimenting with things that they didn't dare try when they were in high school and more under their parents supervision.

This is an especially big problem with certain (not all) girls from "out-of-town" who take apartments in Crown Heights, ostensibly to work here and find shidduchim. The complete lack of supervision seems to generate a lot of nisyonos, which many are not able to withstand.

A stronger emphasis on continued learning, together with the necessary resources, would certainly go a long way to avoiding any such problems. More importantly, it would help generate a stronger commitment to Yiddishkeit in general, and to Chassidus and Chassidishkeit in particular, something that we would all benefit from.
hence why its necessary to teach our students hebrew and arameic grammar, and speak to them in these languages, from an extremely young age.

This way the language will not reprepsent a barrier to their lifelong learning. (this is probably a major reason why many yeshiva students are illiterate in multiple languages.)

They need to learn to read them, write them, speak them, and hear them competantly, and fluently.

concurrently they can learn directly from the sefarim and be taught how to analyize these passages. i'm a big fan of teaching women halachot directly from the mekorot. Especialy those sources that are extremely relevant, like kasherus halachot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
You know, once upon a time, girls picked up yirat Shamayim at home, and the boys were the ones who needed to sit and study all day in order to reach half the level of their sisters/wives.

If today's home were better built, we could have it the same way.

Also, the "Beis Medrash L'nashim" is almost always watered-down, so that only the weaker students will attend. The smartest will just pick up a sefer and learn on their own (ditto for the smartest boys).

You're also not taking into account that often, girls have "better" things to do with their time than learn. If your wife was a serious learner, ask her how many times she found a chavrusa versus how many times she ended up on her own because "you don't need to learn if you don't have to". With bochurim, shopping and clothes are less of an issue, so they end up spending more time with their sfarim by default.

(Prime examples: my brother versus my sister- he makes fun of her makeup, shopping, hairstyling, and clothes, because honestly, in his opinion- who needs it? Better to sit and study- in his opinion, unless she knows as much halacha and chassidus as him and myself [the rabbanim of the family], she's an ignoramus. Go explain to him that his sister has different priorities than he does...)
mt, your brother has a good kop amd daat for learning.

many or most boys find other stuff to shmooze about, like sports.
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Unread 04-25-2009, 10:37 PM   #47
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-nu, so lets speak to them in hebrew and aramaic.
-yeah, i like him too. hes pretty smart, B"H...
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