Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Lubavitch > Chassidus

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Unread 07-20-2007, 09:46 AM   #76
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Question for Mr. Finkelstien: Do we pasken halacha based on pnimiyus haTorah?
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 09:55 AM   #77
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
It seems clear to me from reading Shaar Chag HaMatzos that the AR knew there were CUH"O in his time. Does anybody know why he considered them to be CUH"O if we assume that no rabbi ever taught them the 7 Laws? There have always been gerim throughout Jewish history, but B'nei Noach who learn from orthodox rabbis is a new thing in the past several hundred years, no?
Why can there be conceivably not be חסידי אומות העולם without being "taught by Rabbis"? [I am sure you saw LS v 26 Yisro].
YN - what halocho are we attempting to pasken here?
Gevurah - I want to straighten myself out first: קשוט עצמך ואח"כ קשוט אחרים.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:17 AM   #78
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Mr.F: If you want to give yourself some material for research over Shabbos, go to Otzar770.com and do a search on חסידי אומות העולם, which brings up 25 results.
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:22 AM   #79
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Question for Mr. Finkelstien: Do we pasken halacha based on pnimiyus haTorah?
I think the answer is sometimes yes...for example, Chassidic times for davening...
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:27 AM   #80
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Why can there be conceivably not be חסידי אומות העולם without being "taught by Rabbis"? [I am sure you saw LS v 26 Yisro].
YN - what halocho are we attempting to pasken here?
Gevurah - I want to straighten myself out first: קשוט עצמך ואח"כ קשוט אחרים.
I have never seen LS v26 Yisro. I personally believe there can be cuh"o without being taught by rabbis...but what is the halacha? If a Jew doesn't teach them the halacha of the Rambam, they will never know the exact requirements of the halacha, and will therefore not be halachic cuh"o. Are there any opinions that say differently than the Rambam?
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:28 AM   #81
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
I think the answer is sometimes yes...for example, Chassidic times for davening...
What are the "Chassidic times for davening", and on what aspect of pnimiyus haTorah is it based?
IOW - no such animal...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:32 AM   #82
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
I have never seen LS v26 Yisro. I personally believe there can be cuh"o without being taught by rabbis...but what is the halacha? If a Jew doesn't teach them the halacha of the Rambam, they will never know the exact requirements of the halacha, and will therefore not be halachic cuh"o. Are there any opinions that say differently than the Rambam?
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but what you personally believe is completely irrelevant.
Never saw it? Go learn...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:33 AM   #83
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
What are the "Chassidic times for davening", and on what aspect of pnimiyus haTorah is it based?
IOW - no such animal...
I know that some poskim hold that you can daven mincha when it's already dark, and I thought this was based on kabbalah.
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:36 AM   #84
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but what you personally believe is completely irrelevant.
Never saw it? Go learn...
I should have said, "what I personally feel in my heart", instead of "believe". And that's what I meant because I said, "but what is the halacha?" I know what I personally feel is irrelevant here.
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 10:53 AM   #85
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
I know that some poskim hold that you can daven mincha when it's already dark, and I thought this was based on kabbalah.
What poskim, please?
Unless you mean RT shkiah, acording to those that hold it, and the heter to davven mincha bein hashmoshos.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 11:06 AM   #86
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
What poskim, please?
Unless you mean RT shkiah, acording to those that hold it, and the heter to davven mincha bein hashmoshos.
I guess I was referring to RT.
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 11:08 AM   #87
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
and also to the great Tzaddikim who do so...but yes there are no poskim that I'm aware of...
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 11:51 AM   #88
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson View Post
Question for Mr. Finkelstien: Do we pasken halacha based on pnimiyus haTorah?
This question was not directed to me, but iirc the Rebbe pointed out that the Alter Rebbe z'l, Mittler Rebbe z'l and Tzemach Tzedeck z'l were all poskim in nigleh and pnimiut haTorah.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 11:59 AM   #89
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
I have never seen LS v26 Yisro. I personally believe there can be cuh"o without being taught by rabbis...but what is the halacha? If a Jew doesn't teach them the halacha of the Rambam, they will never know the exact requirements of the halacha, and will therefore not be halachic cuh"o. Are there any opinions that say differently than the Rambam?
If I remember correctly, in the Talmud Sanhedrin there is a debate between two of our Sages ob'm about who is a Bnai Noah. One opinion says anyone who denies idolartry is already in this category, whereas the other view maintains that one must accept all 7 of the Mitzvot, as they were given to Moshe at Sinai, with their details etc.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 12:14 PM   #90
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but what you personally believe is completely irrelevant.
Never saw it? Go learn...
There are three sichos in v 26 Yisro...which one do you suggest I learn first?

I couldn't find them in either Hebrew or English online, just in Yiddish...(I don't know Yiddish, so I'll have to learn it with someone who does.)
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 12:15 PM   #91
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewishHiphop View Post
If I remember correctly, in the Talmud Sanhedrin there is a debate between two of our Sages ob'm about who is a Bnai Noah. One opinion says anyone who denies idolartry is already in this category, whereas the other view maintains that one must accept all 7 of the Mitzvot, as they were given to Moshe at Sinai, with their details etc.
If it's not too much trouble, I would be grateful if you could find out what daf it's on...
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 01:17 PM   #92
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewishHiphop View Post
This question was not directed to me, but iirc the Rebbe pointed out that the Alter Rebbe z'l, Mittler Rebbe z'l and Tzemach Tzedeck z'l were all poskim in nigleh and pnimiut haTorah.
A different issue entirely. Read, man, READ!
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-20-2007, 01:18 PM   #93
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
There are three sichos in v 26 Yisro...which one do you suggest I learn first?

I couldn't find them in either Hebrew or English online, just in Yiddish...(I don't know Yiddish, so I'll have to learn it with someone who does.)
The one that deals with Bnei Noach!
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-30-2007, 10:30 AM   #94
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
I did not follow this thread in detail, besides taking note of some of the more intriguing chiddushim that arose, but 2 more short letters that have relevance is IK v 9 p 53 where he references a Zohar, and v 15 p 182 where he references R' Hillel and notes that what he writes is "based (מיוסד)" on the Siddur, like R' Hillel himself references the siddur.
There is also a reference to the maamorim of the Mitteler Rebbe Dvorim v 4 p 1027, where he refers to טוב שבנוגה in reference to חסידי אוה"ע.
What all this means or adds to the above - if anything - I leave to the experts.
T613,

I looked this up and p 1027 is in Devorim v 3. On this page in vol 3, I don't see anything about טוב שבנוגה in reference to חסידי אוה"ע.
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-30-2007, 01:12 PM   #95
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Sorry, 1207. My mistake.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #96
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
If it's not too much trouble, I would be grateful if you could find out what daf it's on...
I believe it is pages 56-58 iirc. Btw: 58 is gematria Noach.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-01-2007, 10:53 AM   #97
MrFinkelstein
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 725
Thanks T613 and JHH for those sources...

I just found something on R' Manis Friedman's website http://www.rabbifriedman.org/tanyach1.htm

"So even the natural soul, the human soul or the animal soul, in most people produces these positive qualities of generosity and compassion."

If you read this page, I think he is saying that some umos haolam are just born with a nefesh from nogah and it's not that they have to take on the sheva mitzvos al pi Rambam in order to leave gkt and be re-rooted in nogah. This jibes more with my experiences in life, having grown up in a small town with very few Jews where all of my friends were not Jewish.
MrFinkelstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-01-2007, 11:22 AM   #98
NuToTheShechuna
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFinkelstein View Post
This jibes more with my experiences in life, having grown up in a small town with very few Jews where all of my friends were not Jewish.
I guess Gevurah was right: you were not searching for truth, you were searching to validate what you already hold.

Anyway, I came across these references in Likutei Sichos and you might wish to peruse them. this and this.
NuToTheShechuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-01-2007, 02:10 PM   #99
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
Nu...up in A"K I see it all... or is it down below
to see a troll...
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-01-2007, 02:45 PM   #100
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Manis is a source? Nu nu...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Umos Ha'olam and the Mazolos vis a vis Tefilla and Bitachon noahidelaws Chassidus 12 08-19-2007 04:05 PM
Bechira of Umos Ha'olam noahidelaws Chassidus 21 09-28-2004 09:21 PM
Tanya, Perek 2 roza Lubavitch Derech 1 10-20-2003 09:24 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com