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Unread 01-12-2004, 12:59 PM   #26
Leayis
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i agree that by a regular person they weaken but not by a rebbe who is here yatir mibchayohee. BTW these words of the zohar are not a joke.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
i agree that by a regular person they weaken but not by a rebbe who is here yatir mibchayohee. BTW these words of the zohar are not a joke.
Not a joke, but maybe, misunderstood.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:35 PM   #28
Leayis
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missunderstood by who? by those who learn pnimiyus hatorah for 3 hours a day or by those who look into pnimiyus hatorah for 15 minutes on shabbos, or by those who never learned a word of pnimiyus hatorah?
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:37 PM   #29
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i agree that it is taken out of context by some, but for our disscussion i think it is very pertinant.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:50 PM   #30
RebMoshe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leayis
missunderstood by who? by those who learn pnimiyus hatorah for 3 hours a day or by those who look into pnimiyus hatorah for 15 minutes on shabbos, or by those who never learned a word of pnimiyus hatorah?
Very few peopel ;learn Zohar 3 hours a day.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 01:59 PM   #31
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i said pnimiyus hatorah, which amongst many things also explains in great detail the ideas of the zohar.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 06:01 PM   #32
shterna sara
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About loving the Rebbe, we know kamayim hapanim el panim, and when one feels the love of the rebbe to each Jew, it can arouse feelings of love in return! And surely those who are aware that in the Rebbe's zechus, and through his efforts -his shluchim -their eyes have been opened to the beauty of Tora and a Torah life, feel agreat debt and love for the Rebbe. I have encountered it many times!
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Unread 01-12-2004, 06:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by shterna sara
About loving the Rebbe, we know kamayim hapanim el panim, and when one feels the love of the rebbe to each Jew, it can arouse feelings of love in return!
How can one 'feel' the love of a man who is not alive?
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Unread 01-12-2004, 07:00 PM   #34
masbir
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I dont get the argument.

Of course you can love a historical figure who is not alive when you are steeped in his thoughts ideas legacy instruction.

In the Litvish world the are in love with the Chazon Ish and Reb Chai'im, the Kukninks with Rav Kuk. the Satmarers with Reb Yoel.

you love the persona and the figure.

Its a kind of platonic love, whats the problem with that?
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Unread 01-12-2004, 07:04 PM   #35
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I'm not going to use words life and death because although B"H I have my opinion it is controversial. I will say that the rebbe is here. Everything the rebbe taught us is here. All the love he showed and shows us is here. Everything he stood for is here. The rebbe still expects us to do everything he told us to and were still doing it. The rebbe still helps and guides us, wether it's by igros or countless other H.P. ways. In countless, immeasurable ways the rebbe is here and we have to be with him. Even if we don't see him or understand his presence he is still with us, he never left and therefore we still have the ability and obligitation to create and develop a real and loving relationship with the rebbe.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 07:14 PM   #36
rebayzl
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Masbir, so you are basically redfining Love.

I think "love" in the simple sense is impossible for someone who us not alive.

Devotion to Ideas, etc. - for sure.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 07:28 PM   #37
Leayis
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love is very much shiech to someone not alive.
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Unread 01-12-2004, 07:29 PM   #38
iamachassid
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Well then, I'm glad that to me my Rebbe is alive, literally and in my heart, in my life, in my inspiration and guidance
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Unread 01-12-2004, 08:43 PM   #39
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This is insane!

RebMoshe, another case of playing dumb? Rebayzl, please!

You are making something so simple into a controversy.

OF COURSE it is possible and maasim b'chol yom that people love those who are no longer b'alma dein. A yosom doesn't love his mother? An almanah her husband? In an attempt to be sholeil shtus, you've fallen into it yourselves!

Of course a chossid loves a rebbe who showered such love and concern for him and the whole world when he was b'alma dein, and now yatir m'b'ch'
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Unread 01-12-2004, 09:42 PM   #40
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Maskil, you summed it up very well, this is insane, chabadtalk, all of us, golus.
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Unread 01-13-2004, 02:07 AM   #41
shterna sara
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I don't know aboout you guys, but for example I love the Ohr Hachaim!! Of course, I don't know at all what he looked like, and much of his story, so, of course, my relationship with him is different than to the Rebbe who relates to me more personally, but when I read his meforesh and see his love and enthusiasm for Hashem, and for Am Yisroel, I feel how his love includes every Yid, even me- and that inspires me and arouses love in return! You might say that it is not the Ohr Hachaim that I love, but my mental image of him, but that is true of almost every love, the connection is to the person you envision. But surely the Ohr hachaim, and the Rebbe as well, did not misrepresent themselves, but put their etzem in their words and actions.
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Unread 01-13-2004, 02:46 AM   #42
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Oy, i just remembered - I LOVE ARIZAL and the SIDUR AL PI NUSACH HAARIZAL!
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Unread 01-13-2004, 09:03 AM   #43
Leayis
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<<In the Litvish world the are in love with the Chazon Ish >>

Masbir,

i once heard the reason for that. he was magdil the shiur of the shminis she'bishminis
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Unread 01-13-2004, 09:36 AM   #44
RebMoshe
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Quote:
Originally posted by shterna sara
I don't know aboout you guys, but for example I love the Ohr Hachaim!!
You don't love 'him' but some imagination of what you feel him to be.
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Unread 01-13-2004, 02:23 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebMoshe
You don't love 'him' but some imagination of what you feel him to be.
Reread shterna sara's post, she addressed that point.
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Unread 01-18-2004, 11:50 AM   #46
Jude
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Did OUR Rebbe ever used the concept of "love for the Rebbe" in his sichos?
don't know that he did, however the Rebbe did encourage us to learn Likutei Diburim where the Rebbe Rayatz discusses love for the Rebbe (see post 2)

this is from a letter by the Fr. Rebbe:

The custom of chassidim mekusharim in every single generation was to have a set time, whether an hour a day or once a week, or two weeks or once a month, to arouse feelings of love for their teacher and Rebbe. Simply to love the Rebbe with love felt in the heart like love of the flesh for a wife and children. [This was] in addition to mentioning the Rebbe in bentching in the horachaman hu yivarech es moreinu vRabbeinu. And when arousing feelings of love they would picture to themselves those times that they were in yechidus, or they heard chassidus, or were at a farbrengen, for by doing so they were constantly connected. Of course, actual avoda is above all the rest, each according to his ability, whether by oneself or with others.

(Igros Kodesh of the Rebbe Rayatz, vol. 6, p. 353)

Last edited by Jude; 01-18-2004 at 12:58 PM.
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Unread 01-18-2004, 12:38 PM   #47
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So you think the fact the Rebbe did not speak about it has no message whatsoever?
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Unread 01-18-2004, 12:59 PM   #48
Jude
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everything has a message ... what do you think it is in this case?
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Unread 01-20-2004, 05:22 PM   #49
Jude
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and then there's the line from R' Isaac of Homil about Shlomo Ha'Melech and Shir Ha'Shirim ... brought in Likutei Diburim
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Unread 01-22-2004, 02:11 PM   #50
rebayzl
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
and then there's the line from R' Isaac of Homil about Shlomo Ha'Melech and Shir Ha'Shirim ... brought in Likutei Diburim
Another good quote that DOES NOT DEAL with the issue of (1) Why OUR Rebbe did not speak about "love for a Rebbe" (2) How can you love someone you did not know, and who passed away.

Last edited by rebayzl; 01-22-2004 at 02:37 PM.
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