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Unread 12-19-2011, 10:31 AM   #1
tefillin
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Kinus Hashluchim speech

Hello. I watched the live webcast of the Kinus Hashluchim that took place at the Brooklyn cruise terminals. At one point R. Moshe Kotlarsky said approximately the following: may the Rebbe look upon our gathering favorably, his presence is here with us now and may he grant all of our requests. I believe he said these words either at the end of his opening speech or after mentioning the names of the shluchim who were niftar this past year.
My question is what do the words "may he [the Rebbe] grant all of our requests" mean? What kinds of requests do Lubavitchers make of the Rebbe? Do they feel he can grant such requests? These were the words of R. Moshe Kotlarsky as I remember them.

I have been unable to find this part of the kinnus on youtube and it was edited out of the Kinus Banquet cd that JEM is selling. All of the speeches are there on the JEM cd except for this one part that was cut out.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 05:54 PM   #2
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Why not call him and ask him what he meant?
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Unread 12-19-2011, 06:13 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by tefillin View Post
My question is what do the words "may he [the Rebbe] grant all of our requests" mean? What kinds of requests do Lubavitchers make of the Rebbe? Do they feel he can grant such requests?
What kinds of requests? All kinds.
Can the Rebbe grant such requests? Of course. This is the role of the Nosi Hador.

As the Rebbe says Igros Kodesh (not once, but many times):

"This is his [the Previous Rebbes] personal task, and he is the Nasi HaDor [Leader of the Generation]meaning that all the flows of blessing related to our generation flow through him, and not only spiritual flows, but even physical ones. For as is known, this is the function of a Nasithat he elicits all the flows of blessing for the generation without exception. Therefore it was necessary for even the physical meat of the generation of the desert to be elicited via Moshe Rabeinu [the Nasi of that generation]."

For more information, see http://tzaddikim.blogspot.com/search...20intermediary

Lechayim
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Unread 12-19-2011, 08:16 PM   #4
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Why not call him and ask him what he meant?
I might.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 08:51 PM   #5
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What kinds of requests? All kinds.
Can the Rebbe grant such requests? Of course. This is the role of the Nosi Hador.

As the Rebbe says Igros Kodesh (not once, but many times):

"This is his [the Previous Rebbes] personal task, and he is the Nasi HaDor [Leader of the Generation]meaning that all the flows of blessing related to our generation flow through him, and not only spiritual flows, but even physical ones. For as is known, this is the function of a Nasithat he elicits all the flows of blessing for the generation without exception. Therefore it was necessary for even the physical meat of the generation of the desert to be elicited via Moshe Rabeinu [the Nasi of that generation]."

For more information, see http://tzaddikim.blogspot.com/search...20intermediary

Lechayim
To believe in the power of a tzaddik's brochos for health, parnassa, children, and ruchnius matters, etc. and then to beseech him for a brocho for it is one thing. But to believe a tzaddik has the power to give or grant one health, parnassa, children, success in ruchnius matters, etc. and then to beseech him to grant one's wish is quite another thing.
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Unread 12-19-2011, 09:56 PM   #6
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He clearly just meant that the Rebbe should davven for what they are asking him to. No need to be so pedantic--"chapn oif a vort."
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Unread 12-20-2011, 08:09 AM   #7
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He clearly just meant that the Rebbe should davven for what they are asking him to. No need to be so pedantic--"chapn oif a vort."
He didn't say "may he be a meilitz yoshor", nor did he pray that the Rebbe's brochos should be fulfilled, rather he prayed that the Rebbe should "grant (i.e. provide/give)" what we want and need. It sounds like a stretch to say that "may he grant all of our requests" means "may he agree to our requests that he should pray for us". Would it enter our mind that the Rebbe might not consent to pray for us if we ask him to?

Last edited by tefillin; 12-20-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #8
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What kinds of requests? All kinds.
Can the Rebbe grant such requests? Of course. This is the role of the Nosi Hador.

As the Rebbe says Igros Kodesh (not once, but many times):

"This is his [the Previous Rebbes] personal task, and he is the Nasi HaDor [Leader of the Generation]meaning that all the flows of blessing related to our generation flow through him, and not only spiritual flows, but even physical ones. For as is known, this is the function of a Nasithat he elicits all the flows of blessing for the generation without exception. Therefore it was necessary for even the physical meat of the generation of the desert to be elicited via Moshe Rabeinu [the Nasi of that generation]."

For more information, see http://tzaddikim.blogspot.com/search...20intermediary

Lechayim
Who is the ultimate and true source of the stuff we need? Who should we turn to and ask for the stuff we need?
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Unread 12-20-2011, 11:43 AM   #9
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...every one of those who share a bond with my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, hk"m, should strengthen his connection with him, with increasing intensity, by means of the paths which he taught us in his letters, talks and teachings. Likewise, every individual should meditate and fix it firmly in his mind and heart, that the shepherd viz., my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, hk"m has not (G-d forbid) forsaken the flock whose shepherd he has been. Now, too, he continues to stand at his holy tasks, in order to protect his sheep and to endow them with whatever material and spiritual influence they need.

Menachem Schneerson
25 Adar, 5710, Brooklyn, N.Y.


From a letter dated 25 Adar, 5710 [1950], six weeks after the passing of the Rebbe Rayatz. It appears in Sefer HaMaamarim 5710 [1950], p. 150, and in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XII, p. 146.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ebbe-5/042.htm
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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:06 PM   #10
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...every one of those who share a bond with my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, hk"m, should strengthen his connection with him, with increasing intensity, by means of the paths which he taught us in his letters, talks and teachings. Likewise, every individual should meditate and fix it firmly in his mind and heart, that the shepherd viz., my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, hk"m has not (G-d forbid) forsaken the flock whose shepherd he has been. Now, too, he continues to stand at his holy tasks, in order to protect his sheep and to endow them with whatever material and spiritual influence they need.

Menachem Schneerson
25 Adar, 5710, Brooklyn, N.Y.

From a letter dated 25 Adar, 5710 [1950], six weeks after the passing of the Rebbe Rayatz. It appears in Sefer HaMaamarim 5710 [1950], p. 150, and in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XII, p. 146.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ebbe-5/042.htm
Nu, so please answer the questions: Who is the ultimate and true source of all the stuff we need and to whom do we turn and ask?
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Unread 12-20-2011, 06:31 PM   #11
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Hashem, obvously (I of course, would not deign to speak for YN...).
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Unread 12-20-2011, 07:17 PM   #12
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Hashem, obvously (I of course, would not deign to speak for YN...).
The Rebbe says in these sources that all hashpaos come from the Nosi Hador and that the Nosi Hador directs these hashpaos to where they need to go. If everything we need comes from the Nosi Hador and through his hashgachah, where does that leave Hashem with regard to our tefillos? If everything comes from and by the hand of the Nosi Hador then isn't it logical to turn to him as the provider of our needs?
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Unread 12-21-2011, 01:30 AM   #13
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No, the Rebbe says that the hashpaos come through the Nasi Hador. That's the concept of memutza hamechaber. See here.
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Unread 12-21-2011, 09:42 AM   #14
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No, the Rebbe says that the hashpaos come through the Nasi Hador. That's the concept of memutza hamechaber. See here.
This is part of the questions I've asked already. The Rebbe says that the hashpaos come "from him" and "by his hand" in reference to the Nosi Hador. To state my question again, if we have a memutza hamechaber who oversees, controls and sends us "all" hashpaos that we need, and furthermore, we are allowed to ask him to grant us these hashpaos, then where does that leave Hashem vis-a-vis asking Hashem for our needs?
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Unread 12-21-2011, 10:31 AM   #15
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Since ultimately everything comes from Hashem, one prays to Hashem. Praying to a memutza is AZ.
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Unread 12-21-2011, 11:04 AM   #16
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Since ultimately everything comes from Hashem, one prays to Hashem. Praying to a memutza is AZ.
Is one's asking a memutza hamechaber/Nosi Hador to grant one's needs with one's understanding that as a Nosi Hador, by definition, he provides all of our needs a problem?

Is just the belief in this without asking a problem?
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Unread 12-22-2011, 11:12 PM   #17
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No, the Rebbe says that the hashpaos come through the Nasi Hador. That's the concept of memutza hamechaber. See here.
To be exact, the Rebbe says that "all the hashpaos both physical and spiritual" come "from him" and "by his hand" (Igros Kodesh, chelek gimmel, amud 332) and "to endow them with whatever material and spiritual influence they need" (quoted in a previous post also from Igros Kodesh).

It seems from the Rebbe's writings that it is the Nosi Hador who provides us directly with all our needs. Who provides our needs - Hashem or the Nosi Hador? Or is it both as they are really "one and the same thing" (as the Rebbe wrote)?

R. Moshe Kotlarsky's statement at the Kinus Hashluchim is what is prompting me to ask these questions.
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Unread 12-23-2011, 12:05 AM   #18
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Well, I think they were answered already.
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Unread 12-23-2011, 12:14 AM   #19
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Well, I think they were answered already.
Yankel Nosson answered one way. Torah613 answered the opposite way.

Not that I hold by Yankel Nosson's understanding of the Rebbe's writings, but why is his understanding wrong?

The Rebbe does write that "all the hashpaos both physical and spiritual" come "from him" and "by his hand" (Igros Kodesh, chelek gimmel, amud 332) and "to endow them with whatever material and spiritual influence they need" (quoted in a previous post also from Igros Kodesh).

It seems that Yankel Nosson is correct in his understanding that it is the Nosi Hador who provides us directly with all our needs. Who provides our needs - Hashem or the Nosi Hador? Or is it both as they are really "one and the same thing" (as the Rebbe wrote)?
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Unread 12-23-2011, 11:12 AM   #20
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and "by his hand" (Igros Kodesh, chelek gimmel, amud 332)
In the context it is written, does not mean "by his hand" (whatever that means). It means "through him".

This whole discussion is "Emunas Tzaddikim 101", through all the generations of Chassidus. The expression that the tzaddik gives hashpo'as, is found all over in chassidishe seforim, and yet no one ever understood that there is any other "giver" than Hashem, and that we davven to anyone else besides Hashem, . If you prefer new interpretations, based on a "diyuk" here or there, that very likely contradict Ikrei Emunah - be my guest. By that "understanding" - why not rewrite the siddur ( )?

[My suspicion is - that there is trolling going on here. If you do not see a certain understanding to be wrong, then why are you asking again and again, and parsing R' Kotlarsky's speech to pieces? Even better, instead of coming here and asking vague questions, find a knowledgable chassidishe yid, who knows how to learn nigla and chassidus, and learn with him. That will clear up all your questions, and you will not have to rewrite ikrei emuna based on nebulous diyukim found in speeches... Therefore - let someone else continue this discussion, if they want].

Last edited by Torah613; 12-23-2011 at 01:48 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
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Unread 12-23-2011, 11:26 AM   #21
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In the context it is written, does not mean "by his hand" (whatever that means). It means "through him".

This whole discussion is "Emunas Tzaddikim 101", through all the generations of Chassidus. The expression that the tzaddik gives hashpo'as, is found all over in chassidishe seforim, and yet no one ever understood that there is any other "giver" than Hashem. If you prefer new interpretations, based on a "diyuk" here or there, that very likely contradict Ikrei Emunah - be my guest. By that "understanding" - why not rewrite the siddur ( )?

[My suspicion is - that there is trolling going on here. Therefore - let someone else continue this discussion, if they want].
Trolling for understanding. R. Kotlarsky made a statement that stirred me to look into this.

The Rebbe writes in several places, a few of which were brought in this thread, that the Nosi Hador provides ALL of our needs both spiritual and physical. Where does this idea come from?

The Rebbe also teaches that we may make requests of him for these things. If the one making the request believes that the Rebbe can grant his request because 1. the Rebbe provides everything and 2). because asking the Rebbe is tantamount to asking Hashem, as the Rebbe writes that there is no problem of intermediaries when making requests of the Rebbe since the Rebbe and Hashem are one. Where does this idea come from in Chassidus?
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Unread 12-23-2011, 12:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
In the context it is written, does not mean "by his hand" (whatever that means). It means "through him".

This whole discussion is "Emunas Tzaddikim 101", through all the generations of Chassidus. The expression that the tzaddik gives hashpo'as, is found all over in chassidishe seforim, and yet no one ever understood that there is any other "giver" than Hashem, and that we davven to anyone else besides Hashem, . If you prefer new interpretations, based on a "diyuk" here or there, that very likely contradict Ikrei Emunah - be my guest. By that "understanding" - why not rewrite the siddur ( )?

[My suspicion is - that there is trolling going on here. If you do not see a certain understanding to be wrong, then why are you asking again and again, and parsing R' Kotlarsky's speech to pieces? Even better, instead of coming here and asking vague questions, find a knowledgable chassidishe yid, who knows how to learn nigla and chassidus, and learn with him. That will clear up all your quetions, and you will not have to rewrite ikrei emuna based on nebulous diyukim found in speeches... Therefore - let someone else continue this discussion, if they want].
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Unread 12-23-2011, 01:06 PM   #23
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But you're the one who said that one can make all kinds of requests to the Rebbe and that the Rebbe has the power to grant these requests.

Torah613 is saying that you cannot do this or even believe it. So I don't understand your saying "gut gezugt".
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Unread 12-23-2011, 01:47 PM   #24
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He did not write "gezugt", he wrote "gezucht". What he means by that - he will have to explain himself.
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Unread 12-23-2011, 03:08 PM   #25
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But you're the one who said that one can make all kinds of requests to the Rebbe and that the Rebbe has the power to grant these requests.

Torah613 is saying that you cannot do this or even believe it. So I don't understand your saying "gut gezugt".
That you don't understand why I say "gut gezugt" is why you need to take T613's advice and learn the subject properly. Without Chassidus you will see many contradictions in Torah, and a web forum will not rectify a troll in one day. A freilechen Purim!

Ooops...I mean Chanukah!!!


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Before we answer this question, there is another question that has been asked: How is it at all appropriate to address requests to the Rebbe? Is this not putting him in the position of an intermediary?[143]
Some people apply this question to requests relating to the awe of heaven.[144]

The answer to the question regarding intermediaries is as follows.

Just as "Israel and the Torah and the Holy One, blessed be He, are all one" -- i.e., not only is Israel connected to the Torah and the Torah is connected to G-d,[145] but they are all absolutely one -- so, too, in the bond between chassidim and their Rebbe, these are not like two entities which unite, but they become absolutely "all one." And the Rebbe is not an intermediary who intercepts,[146] but an intermediary who connects.[147] Accordingly, for the chassid, he and the Rebbe and the Holy One, blessed be He, are all one.

(I have not seen this written explicitly in the teachings of Chassidus: it is a hergesh, a matter of individual perception. Hence, whoever wants to perceive things this way, let him do so; whoever does not want to, I do not want to argue with him: let him abide by his own stance.)

Accordingly, the query regarding intermediaries ceases to be problematic, since we are speaking of the Essence and Being of G-d Himself, as He has garbed Himself in a body.[148]

This accords with the statement in the Zohar,[149] maan pnei ha'adon Havayah da Rashbi.[150] In the same spirit, for the duration of its mission even an angel is referred to by G-d's Name.[151] So, too, Moshe Rabbeinu said,[152] "I shall grant grass."

In the same way as the above query [about intermediaries] ceases to be problematic, the earlier query -- as to how the Rebbe can respond to requests concerning the rectification of matters pertaining to the bed -- likewise ceases to be problematic. For the bond between Rebbe and chassid is a bond that is rooted in the very essence of each.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...-1/12.htm#t142
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