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Unread 08-04-2011, 02:29 AM   #1
lamed
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Source for tzimtzum shelokipshuto in a newly discovered sefer of R' Chaim Vital

Yosef Avivi recently published Kitzur Seder HaAtzilus - Mahadura basra bedrush Adam Kadma'ah. This is a previously unknown sefer from R' Chaim Vital found in a collection of manuscripts copied by R' Menachem de Lonzano. In this sefer R' Chaim Vital clearly states that tzimtzum is lokipshuto. I've attached the first few pages.
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File Type: pdf 1.pdf (254.5 KB, 349 views)
File Type: pdf 2.pdf (304.9 KB, 317 views)
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Unread 08-07-2011, 01:35 PM   #2
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If you look at Eitz Chaim and Otzros Chaim, right at the beginning, both of those seforim use almost the identical language.
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Unread 08-07-2011, 06:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
If you look at Eitz Chaim and Otzros Chaim, right at the beginning, both of those seforim use almost the identical language.
Neither of them says that tzimtzum is only a moshol, and neither of them mentions the reshimu.
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Unread 08-07-2011, 07:22 PM   #4
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You state that in some newly found manuscript, R' Chaim Vital says that Tzimtzum is not k'pshuto. When I point out that nothing in what you attached is different from Eitz Chaim, which the Rebbeim were very familiar with, you revert to arguing that the Eitz Chaim itself does not state that tzimtzum is a moshol. So you're changing your argument from claiming that there is something that the Rebbeim didn't know about that proves them wrong, to claiming that they did know about the lashon in Eitz Chaim but somehow misunderstood it.

First, the fact that the Rebbeim were aware of the Eitz Chaim and still taught tzimtzum is not k'pshuto means that you're reading the Eitz Chaim wrong. Second, Eitz Chaim never claims that something is a moshol. The entire sefer is full of mosholim that are never labeled mosholim. If you believe that tzimtzum is k'pshuto just because R' Chaim Vital says so in Eitz Chaim, then by the same token I suppose you believe that physical lights come out of the ears and extend to the tip of the beard...
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Unread 08-07-2011, 10:09 PM   #5
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Malkizedek, I fear you are misunderstanding something. Lamed never said that the EC says it is kepshuto - but usually it is assumed that the issue is not clear in the Kisvei Ari - therefore there is a disagreement among the mekubolim whether kepshuto or not.
Lamed is merely claiming, that in this new sefer - it is clear.
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Unread 08-07-2011, 10:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Malkizedek, I fear you are misunderstanding something. Lamed never said that the EC says it is kepshuto - but usually it is assumed that the issue is not clear in the Kisvei Ari - therefore there is a disagreement among the mekubolim whether kepshuto or not.
Lamed is merely claiming, that in this new sefer - it is clear.
That is what his first post stated. Yes. However, the sources he brings are nearly identical to EC and OC. So if it was not clear in EC, then it is no more clear here, and vice versa.
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Unread 08-07-2011, 10:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkizedek View Post
That is what his first post stated. Yes. However, the sources he brings are nearly identical to EC and OC. So if it was not clear in EC, then it is no more clear here, and vice versa.
Look at what is different between them. In EC and OC R' Chaim Vital doesn't bring that Zohar "boka velo boka" (which is near the end of a ma'amor Zohar often interpreted as referring to tzimtzum) and explain it as tzimtzum not being a literal bakua. Those who hold tzimtzum kipshuto because of the reasons quoted in the Tanya would say that it is a literal bakua. In EC and OC he also never mentions the reshimu, which he does here.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 06:26 AM   #8
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I misunderstood your top post. My mistake. You're right that the new language goes further in implying that tzimtzim is not kpshuto.
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Unread 08-08-2011, 10:10 AM   #9
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Now that I'm reading the OP right, that is a very interesting find.
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Unread 12-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #10
Kookoo Kabalist
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What's unclear is if this sefer is indeed from R' Chaim Vital, as claimed.

When this sefer was first released, there were written debates about this. See the debates online involving the publisher himself.

http://www.bhol.co.il/forum/topic.as...forum_id=19616
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