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Unread 01-19-2012, 05:04 PM   #26
Kookoo Kabalist
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If you're posting here in this thread - please no inside talk. At the very least, you can direct your conversation in a way where it includes the OP. What do you you gain by having this "inside" discussion anyway? Admittedly, you don't even understand each-other. What's the point then? Just talk straight and explain yourselves... Both of you. This is a perfectly decent thread turning into a pile of spaghetti posts that don't even make much sense.
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Unread 01-19-2012, 10:30 PM   #27
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I am not sure what is not to be understood. I think that the posts are clear. It is in my opinion at least not "inside talk".

If you have a question on something posted ask. You asked which בעש"ט I was referring to and I responded, feel free to ask on anything else. I will attempt to respond as best as I can.

(I am speaking on my behalf, not Tuesday's. I am sure that he can respond for himself).
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Unread 01-19-2012, 10:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday View Post
as such, to say that you can have a "good תענוג גשמי" without the above תאוה עצמי revealed is false as הא בהא תליא
Where did I say this? I said that all "Taavah gashmiyus is bad, all taanug gashmiyus isn't"

The תאוה עצמי is not for the gashmiyus, but to fulfill רצון ה. The Taanug is invariably in the gashmiy.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 12:06 AM   #29
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I also found the back-and-forth above hard to follow. In any case, those who are drawing a distinction between "taava" and "taanug", could you please elaborate on how you understand this distinction, preferably citing sources.
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Unread 01-20-2012, 03:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post
Where did I say this? I said that all "Taavah gashmiyus is bad, all taanug gashmiyus isn't"

The תאוה עצמי is not for the gashmiyus, but to fulfill רצון ה. The Taanug is invariably in the gashmiy.
Taanug is invariably in the gashmi? If the תאוה is not for the gashmius then the תענוג is not in the גשמיות (but in the ניצוץ). Additionally, if the תאוה עצמי is בגילוי then התכללות תחתון בעליון the תענוג גשמי is נכלל in תענוג עצמי and is בלתי מורגש בפ"ע… ע"ד התכללות המדות בגדלות המוחין… תחתון בעליון … בכלל מאתים… otherwise… קטנות.. nu nu..
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Unread 01-20-2012, 04:07 PM   #31
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if we are quoting כתר שם טוב look up 21..כי תראה חמור שנאך.. or ידך בעורף אויבך from תו"א מ"ה ע"ד.. or באתי לגני תשי"ג ס"ו.. nu.. הרי זה שטות גדול שהוא מחליף תענוג גשמי שהוא פסולת באמת – בתענוג אלקי שהוא עיקר התענוג... that should wrap up vchu...
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Unread 01-21-2012, 11:06 PM   #32
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The Taanug is the gashmiyus.

ונתתי גשמיכם בעתם. מעדנים מצויין כעפר. ועיין
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Unread 01-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #33
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לע"ל משא"כ בזה"ג... ופשוט...

(and even then.. see פשט רמב"ם..)
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Unread 01-22-2012, 01:43 AM   #34
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Eter

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
In the quote below (from the maamar here), the Rebbe says that we should remove all worldly pleasures from ourselves. How does this fit with the inyan quoted in Tanya ch. 7:


If a person truly didn't enjoy taanugei olam hazeh, then how could those taanugim be poel on him or her harchovas hada'as if he or she did them leshem Shomayim?

Also, this maamar seems to be saying that this is an avodah for everyone. But isn't this davka an avodah of a Tzaddik, or the avodah of a non-Tzadik to try to be a Tzadik--Tehi Tzadik, as explained in Tanya end ch. 14, which the Alter Rebbe says will the vast majority of the time only be reached "bedimyonos", etc.?
The first few maamorim in Eter (5670) might answer these questions.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 05:39 PM   #35
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The Taanug is the gashmiyus.

ונתתי גשמיכם בעתם. מעדנים מצויין כעפר. ועיין
Kmuvan, that this is only if one's focus of the Taanug is for ה' and not as a pleasure separate from him. i.e the עונג is in שבת and not in the food.

see ספר השיחות תרצ"ז עמ 158 for a discussion of the תענוג עצמי
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Unread 01-22-2012, 06:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couldntbe View Post
Kmuvan, that this is only if one's focus of the Taanug is for ה' and not as a pleasure separate from him. i.e the עונג is in שבת and not in the food.

see ספר השיחות תרצ"ז עמ 158 for a discussion of the תענוג עצמי
Precisely my point. The Taanug is NOT in the food (גשמיות).. rather... להתענג על הוי' כו... even לע"ל שכל המעדנים יהיו מצויין (בבחי') כעפר ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את הוי' בלבד.
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Unread 01-22-2012, 06:47 PM   #37
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Point of contention is whether the gashmiyus is a means to an end or and end in itself.

You are saying like the Shita of Rambam in Moshiach that it is all a means to an end. I am saying like Ramban, that ultimately it is a Tachlis. כידוע
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Unread 01-22-2012, 07:16 PM   #38
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לע"ל משא"כ בזה"ג... several posts back you will recall that I said

and even then with וראו כל בשר... it is still a means for גילוי הוי'...
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Unread 01-22-2012, 09:39 PM   #39
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Agreed
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Unread 01-22-2012, 11:28 PM   #40
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In the Chanuka maamor brought in the first post, the description is "להמשך אחרי תאות" and the like, and once "להתאוות". Also in Eter. Why are they used interchangeably? If not for that one time I might have explained that there it is not reffering to having the etzem תאוה but rather to dwelling on it and encouraging it to manifest itself more often (and more powerfully) in the future, through desiring the תאוה (hence also "חמימות התאוה" and not just "תאוה").

(Does the חמימות come from יסוד המים שבנפש or from יסוד האש (perhaps its an אהבה)?)

Last edited by Paper; 01-23-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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