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Unread 10-11-2008, 05:29 PM   #1
Rabbi_Shlomo
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Sukkot - HASHEM's Promise

This coming up Monday night, Oct. 13, is the Jewish Holiday Sukkot. Hashem told Moshe to write in the Torah, three times during the year we are commanded to visit God's chosen place (baMakom asher yivhar HASHEM). HASHEM, has declared that Jerusalem is the chosen place. Even though we are in exile, the mitzvah still remains. In sefer Devarim, perek 16, pasuk 15, is stated a HASHEM's promise, that if you will keep Mitzvat Sukkot for the full seven days in Jerusalem, HASHEM will bless everything you do (Ki Yevarechecha... uBechol Maase Yadecha) and that you will only be happy (veHayita Ach Sameiach). What God promises, God delivers.

Hag Sameiach,
Rabbi Shlomo Levy

http://TorahForever.net

Last edited by Smirnoff; 10-12-2008 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Resizing
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Unread 10-11-2008, 09:04 PM   #2
MahTovChelkeinu
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Are you saying there is still an active chiyuv to spend the chagim in Yerushalayim?

Fine the mitzvah still remains, but you can't say there is an obligation to go daven by the kosel b'zman hazeh.
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Unread 10-11-2008, 09:36 PM   #3
Torah613
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Even in the days of the Beis Hamikdash - those outside EY had no chiyuv (according to many), and when there is no Beis Hamikdosh - by definition there is no chiyuv.
Therefore - the above post is nonsense from beginning to end...
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Unread 10-12-2008, 12:59 AM   #4
Rabbi_Shlomo
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If you read the pesukim carefully you will see that it doesn't depend on the Beit Hamikdash being kayam or not. HASHEM said and I quote from the pasuk mentioned above "shivat yamim...bamakom asher yivhar.." Bamakom asher yivar is still kayam - Yerushalayim.

Hag Sameiach
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Unread 10-12-2008, 03:39 AM   #5
Majorthinker
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B'makom asher yivchar refers davka to the Beit Hamikdash, not just Yerushalayim.
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Unread 10-12-2008, 08:58 AM   #6
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi_Shlomo View Post
If you read the pesukim carefully you will see that it doesn't depend on the Beit Hamikdash being kayam or not. HASHEM said and I quote from the pasuk mentioned above "shivat yamim...bamakom asher yivhar.." Bamakom asher yivar is still kayam - Yerushalayim.

Hag Sameiach
If you are talking about the mitzvah of "aliya leregel" (as you apparantly were, like you wrote in the first 3 sentences) - it is clear in poskim (sarting from Sefer Hachinuch) that the mitzvah applies when there is a Beis Hamikdash.
Posuk 16 is referring to bringing the Korbon Chagiga - hence the word תחוג, as explained in Gemoro, Rambam, Even Ezra on the posuk etc.
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Unread 10-12-2008, 02:57 PM   #7
Rabbi_Shlomo
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There is a machloket between the Rambam and Tosfot if veSamchata Bechagecha is shayach today or not. The Tosfot say no, only during the times of Beit Hamidash, since beChagecha refers to the korban Chagiga which letzaarainu we don't have today. However, the Rambam disagrees, and explains beChagecha includes basar behaima and not just of a korban. According to the Rambam, a Jew is mechuyav from the Torah to eat Basar on Yom Tov, even in our time, shenemar veSamachta beChagecha.

There is a mefaresh which claims that the mochleket between the Rambam and Tosfot can actually be found in the Talmud Yerushalmi.

Pshat hapsuk doesn't mention korban, which makes the Rambam's pesika according to the pshat. The Tosfot, it seems like in my opinion, in this case and many more, their pattern is to follow the midrash.

Talmud Yerushalmi, masechet Peiah, perek alef, if halacha is rofefet in your hand, go after the minhag. Puk Chazi ma ama davar. Today, rabim veGam shlaimim are mekayem aliya laregel according to pshat hapasuk, which the Rambam was always mishaen al (leaning on).

Sof Davar: Ase lecha Rav vehistalek meen hasafek

Moadim leSimcha
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Unread 10-12-2008, 04:18 PM   #8
Torah613
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Correct. According to the Rambam etc. there is a mitzvah of simcha today also. This has nothing to do with the assertion in the original post that there is a mitzvah to be oleh regel today. Though according to the above pilpul, those who do visit "Yerushalayim" (I thought the mitzvah is to be seen in the beis hamikdash, as the rambam himself writes?) would have to eat meat...
Sof dovor: You have yet to produce a source in poskim, שמימיהם אנו שותים, that the מצוה of עליה לרגל - not simcha, which was not the issue - applies today. New droshos of psukim, will not do the job - at least for someone like myself who unfortunately believes that "psika" is not based on psukim, but on poskim.
Therefore - my above comments stand in their entirety.
The minhog of many to go to yerushalayim and near the mokom hamikdosh during yomtov, is not because there is a mitzvah today based on the posuk, but based on the midrash הציבו לך ציונים etc. - see the discussion in עיר הקדש והמקדש volume 3 chapter 15 (p 202-4).
OTOH, there is - according to many opinions - a mitzvah min hatorah of taking the lulav all 7 days in yerushalayim even today - but that is a totally different discussion based on different psukim etc.
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Unread 10-12-2008, 08:16 PM   #9
MahTovChelkeinu
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Let me say that, while I could not do as fine a job as Torah613 of discussing the poskim, I am not convinced by Reb Shlomo's argument. While it pains me every time I say V'Yerushalayim in shemonah esrei, I cannot say that HaMokom Asher Yivhar Hashem is available for us today to be mikayem the mitzvah.

However, I am gratified to see that Reb Shlomo has actually taken the time to discuss his opinions on ChabadTalk rather than simply post an ad for his website and disappear. Y'asher Koach for demonstrating you are actually able to defend your position, and I wish you much success in your learning and your efforts to inspire yidden to learn Toras Emes.
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Unread 10-13-2008, 08:56 AM   #10
Torah613
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למעשה, אחר כותבי כהנ"ל - שלפע"נ הוא נכונה, ראיתי בנטעי גבריאל על הל' יו"ט שמביא ב' מקורות בח"ס לזה. הראשון בתורת משה פרשת אמור ד"ה אך שכתב בזה"ל "שגם בזה"ז מצוה לעלות לרגל לירושלים והוכיח בשיל"ת יעב"ץ ח"א", עכ"ל. וכנראה הכונה לשאילת יעב"ץ ח"א סי' קכז, אבל שם לא ראיתי מבואר כן, וצ"ע כעת. ובשו"ת ח"ס יו"ד סי' רל"ד ד"ה ונלפע"ד "אבל בזה"ז אין חיוב עשה לעלות ברגל" ע"ש המשך דבריו, א"כ כאן דעתו שאין חיוב כזה. ולא חלי ולא מרגיש בספר נ"ג הנ"ל שהדברים סותרים. עכ"פ מפשטות דברי הפוסקים (וכ"ה כמדומני מפורש בנו"ב) מבואר כמ"ש לעיל שאין כזה חיוב מה"ת לעלות בזה"ז (אלא שיש מנהג כזה מדורי דורות משום זכר וכו', וכמ"ש לעיל), ואפי' אם יש כזה חיוב, אין לזה שייכות לפסוק הנ"ל. כנלענ"ד נכון

Last edited by Torah613; 10-13-2008 at 10:43 AM.
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Unread 10-13-2008, 09:28 AM   #11
MahTovChelkeinu
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Well done Torah613.
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