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Unread 03-21-2006, 06:13 PM   #1
AkivaYitzhak
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Question Human and non-human intermediaries

Is there a halacha somewhere that says that when we daven the shemoneh esrei we have to concentrate on the Holy of Holies on the Temple Mount? If so, what is this all about? And if we don't concentrate on it, will this impede our prayers from being heard by Hashem? Are we using the Holy of Holies and this intention during davening as an intermediary between us and Hashem? Why isn't this halachically problematic? And if it is kosher, what's the difference between this and a human intermediary?
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Unread 03-22-2006, 07:38 PM   #2
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what are you getting at??? get to the point!
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Unread 03-22-2006, 09:27 PM   #3
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You mean, like trying to talk to a frieng across the world without a phone?
I guess if Ur a VERY speacial person you can do that.
Or like those stories you hear of people who are very close so they can hear each others thoughts when their in totally different places? Telepathy.
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Unread 03-22-2006, 09:28 PM   #4
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Or like asking The Rebbe for a bracha?
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Unread 03-22-2006, 09:45 PM   #5
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When Hashem designates an intermediary, it's not a separation, it's a conduit.
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Unread 03-22-2006, 09:53 PM   #6
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Intermediary

Quote:
Originally Posted by AkivaYitzhak
Is there a halacha somewhere that says that when we daven the shemoneh esrei we have to concentrate on the Holy of Holies on the Temple Mount? If so, what is this all about? And if we don't concentrate on it, will this impede our prayers from being heard by Hashem? Are we using the Holy of Holies and this intention during davening as an intermediary between us and Hashem? Why isn't this halachically problematic? And if it is kosher, what's the difference between this and a human intermediary?
We didn't receive the Torah ourselves, Moshe gave it to us (Toras Moshe).

In the Bais Hamikdash we didn't peform the avodah ourselves, it was done by the Kohanim. And since תפילות כנגד תמידים תקנום we should not be surprised that we are to direct our prayers to Har Habayis (though where did you hear "concentrate on the Holy of Holies"?)

From another angle, Moshe is the head of the Jewish people, we are his feet. When the foot hurts it turns to the mouth to tell the doctor about the problem. And the head doesn't think "that's just the foot's problem" because the head and the foot are really one entity. Moshe is takka an intermediary, but an intermediary who connects (ממוצה המחבר).

But we don't daven to him.
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Unread 03-22-2006, 10:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson
But we don't daven to him.
An ignoramus might just get confuzed when seeing a phone conversation and think the conversation is with the phone....
As in 'Hey phone... I need help...' or '911!!!!'
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Unread 03-22-2006, 10:03 PM   #8
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I looked this up in the Kitzur Shulcan Aruch and found it in the laws of the Amidah. It says that we should direct our hearts to Hashem and at the same time think about the Holy of Holies. This is why we face Yerushalayim when we pray. The Kitzur says that the Holy of Holies is the place where our prayers pass through before they ascend to heaven.

My questions:

1. When we pray shouldn't we only be thinking about Hashem? Why the need to also think about the Holy of Holies?

2. What does it mean that our prayers pass through the Holy of Holies before they ascend to heaven? If Hashem can hear our prayers no matter where we are on earth, then why do they first need to go through a specific place before they can reach Hashem?

3. I feel uncomfortable picturing my prayers going through the Holy of Holies when I am busy trying to think about Hashem alone? I feel that this image gets in the way.

4. And if we don't have this intention when we are saying the Shemoneh Esrei, will our prayers have a harder time getting to Hashem?
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Unread 03-22-2006, 10:46 PM   #9
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From the book "Kitzur Shulchan Aruch"(Moznaim 1991, vol. 1, pgs. 83-84) by Rabbi Shlomo Ganzfried, translated and annotated by Rabbi Eliyahu Touger:

10. ...Thus, all Jews direct their prayers to one palce, Jerusalem and the Holy of Holies, because this is the "gateway to heaven", since all prayers rise up in this direction. Therefore the Temple is called Talpios, as [The Song of Songs 4:4] states: "Your neck is like the tower of David, built as talpios." [tal means a mountain; pios - mouths. Thus, that term can be interpreted]: the mountain to which all mouths turn. A person who prays in a place where he cannot face Eretz Yisrael should direct his heart to his Father in Heaven, as [I Kings 8:44] states: "Pray to G-d."....A person who stood facing the north or south and realized in the midst of the Shemoneh Esreh that he is not standing properly should not change the palce where he is standing. Rather, he should turn his face to the east. If he is facing west, and thus turning his face to the east is impossible, he should conclude his prayers while standing in this manner without moving his feet, and direct his heart towards the Holy of Holies.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 12:36 AM   #10
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Aw shucks... I thought you where going in a different direction...
I wanna talk about my Rebbe!
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Unread 03-23-2006, 09:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by why
Aw shucks... I thought you where going in a different direction...
I wanna talk about my Rebbe!
The discussion might eventually get there, but first I am very interested in finding some answers to these two questions:

What does it mean that our prayers pass through the Holy of Holies before they ascend to heaven? If Hashem can hear our prayers no matter where we are on earth, then why do they first need to go through a specific place before they can reach Him?

Yankel Nosson, I appreciated what you wrote a few posts back. It was very helpful. I know we are not praying to the Holy of Holies or to any person, but the loshon of the Kitzur is still curious.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 09:44 AM   #12
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3. I feel uncomfortable picturing my prayers going through the Holy of Holies when I am busy trying to think about Hashem alone? I feel that this image gets in the way.
Nishmas Ruzhiner bo.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 09:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah
Nishmas Ruzhiner bo.
No peekie English. Come again?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 10:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah
Nishmas Ruzhiner bo.
Gevurah,

I don't know enough about the Ruzhiner to chap your reference. Are you saying that the Ruzhiner felt the same way I do?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 11:44 AM   #15
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Well, I guess.

there is an interesting letter which i found while i was going through igreis.

"מה שביקש להזכירו על ציון כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר הכ"מ אעשה כבקשתו, ומה שכותב שאין לו הבנה בזה, הנה גם שאוכל ושותה וישן בטח אינו מתבונן מקודם איך פועל על הגוף והנשמה שלו, ועושה כל שה גם אם אינו מבין באיזה אופן נעשה הפעולה. וגם בענין זה כן הוא.

ומה שכותב שנראה כמדברים למתים ח"ו ומכוונים מחשבה לזולת ח"ו, הנה בודאי מבין בעצמו שאין הדבר כך, כיון שמוסכם שכלב בן יפונה וכמה תנאים ואמוראים וצדיקים בכל הדורות עשו כן.

ובקצרה לבאר קושיתו, הנה גם כשבאו להרבי לבקש ברכה, לא היו באים אליו מפני מעלת הגוף שלו אלא מפני מעלת נשמתו. כל ענין המיתה אינו שייך כי אם בגוף, כי הנשמה היא נצחית, ובפרט נשמת צדיק שאינה שייכת כלל וכלל לגיהינום, כף הקלע וכו', הרי ענין המיתה בה היינו הסתלקות, [פ]ירושה עלי' למדריגה נעלית יותר ואינו קרוי ח"ו מת. וכמה שכתוב בזהר (ח"ג דף ע"א) ומה שכתוב שמכוין מחשבתו לזולתו, הנה בקצרה אין הדבר כן, כי (א) הבקשה היא שהצדיק ברוב צדקתו ימליץ טוב על המבקש לפני מלך מלכי המלכים הקב"ה, (ב) כוונה שני' בזה, אשר כל חסיד ומקושר, הנה נשמתו היא פרט מנשמת הצדיק שהיא כלל גדול, ונמשלה לראש ביחס להנשמות פרטיות שלה, כמבואר בתניא פ' ב'. וכמו שכל אבר ואבר אף שהוא מקבל חיותו מהנשמה, הנה תחלה הנשמה מתלבשת בראש ומח, ומהראש ומח מתחלק אח"כ החיות לכל אבר ואבר לפי ענינו, כך הוא ג"כ בחסיד ורבי, אשר הראש כיון שהוא בריא וחזק יש בו כל החיות השונות של כל אבר ואבר, וכדי שיהי' ג"כ האבר בריא, צריך שתהי' ההתקשרות שלו עם הראש שלימה, היינו הגידים והנערוון המקשרים הראש הראש עם האברים יהיו פתוחים, אשר אז יומשך אל האבר החיות השייך אליו.

וזהו בכללות ענין ההתקשרות של חסיד לרבי, אשר על ידי זה מקבל החסיד כל המצטרך לו הן בגשמיות והן ברוחניות.
"

There isn't much to do with this specific conversation, but it may shed some light on the issue of Rebbe.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 11:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
"מה שביקש להזכירו על ציון כ"ק מו"ח אדמו"ר הכ"מ אעשה כבקשתו, ומה שכותב שאין לו הבנה בזה, הנה גם שאוכל ושותה וישן בטח אינו מתבונן מקודם איך פועל על הגוף והנשמה שלו, ועושה כל שה גם אם אינו מבין באיזה אופן נעשה הפעולה. וגם בענין זה כן הוא.

ומה שכותב שנראה כמדברים למתים ח"ו ומכוונים מחשבה לזולת ח"ו, הנה בודאי מבין בעצמו שאין הדבר כך, כיון שמוסכם שכלב בן יפונה וכמה תנאים ואמוראים וצדיקים בכל הדורות עשו כן.

ובקצרה לבאר קושיתו, הנה גם כשבאו להרבי לבקש ברכה, לא היו באים אליו מפני מעלת הגוף שלו אלא מפני מעלת נשמתו. כל ענין המיתה אינו שייך כי אם בגוף, כי הנשמה היא נצחית, ובפרט נשמת צדיק שאינה שייכת כלל וכלל לגיהינום, כף הקלע וכו', הרי ענין המיתה בה היינו הסתלקות, [פ]ירושה עלי' למדריגה נעלית יותר ואינו קרוי ח"ו מת. וכמה שכתוב בזהר (ח"ג דף ע"א) ומה שכתוב שמכוין מחשבתו לזולתו, הנה בקצרה אין הדבר כן
Thank you very much. I was basically able to understand everything except for the above. Could you please translate just this part for me?

And who wrote it?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 11:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkivaYitzhak
What does it mean that our prayers pass through the Holy of Holies before they ascend to heaven? If Hashem can hear our prayers no matter where we are on earth, then why do they first need to go through a specific place before they can reach Him?

Yankel Nosson, I appreciated what you wrote a few posts back. It was very helpful. I know we are not praying to the Holy of Holies or to any person, but the loshon of the Kitzur is still curious.
Hashem is ממלא כל עלמין filling all the worlds. So what makes one place more holy than any other? Hashem is as close to you in Yechupetzville as He is in Yerushalayim, giving you life, etc. Why do we have to build a Beis Hamikdash in one special spot and then we all have to go there three times a year? Hashem is just as much here as He is there. What gives?

To answer in part: we find that while Hashem is equally present in every place in the world, He is not equally revealed. Hashem was more revealed in a the Bais Hamikdash than other places. He is more revealed in a makom tefilah than on the street of the tanners.

Obviously there is no reason for this to be so other than Hashem's decree. He chose to be more revealed in certain "holy" places and less so in others. We can, however, find a reason for this that relates to your question. An explanation that is given as to why the world was created at all: in order to give neshomas the ability to do Avodah--to serve Hashem; to express their desire to be close to Hashem amidst concealments and obstacles. With this we can understand why Hashem created the world with places where he is more revealed and less revealed--to give the neshoma in a guf the opportunity to make an effort יגיעה to draw closer to Elokus (see image below ). In gashmiyus there are places of holiness and the opposite, and so too in the inner life of a Jew. When davening we are supposed to direct ourselves to that spot both internally and externally.

By the way, I learned the meaning of this in a very tangible way: see my post #6 in this thread: Caribbean Parade on Eastern Parkway (you'll enjoy it )

_____________________________________________

Question: How do you show how much you desire something?
Answer:
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Unread 03-23-2006, 12:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson
Hashem is ממלא כל עלמין filling all the worlds. So what makes one place more holy than any other? Hashem is as close to you in Yechupetzville as He is in Yerushalayim, giving you life, etc. Why do we have to build a Beis Hamikdash in one special spot and then we all have to go there three times a year? Hashem is just as much here as He is there. What gives?

To answer in part: we find that while Hashem is equally present in every place in the world, He is not equally revealed. Hashem was more revealed in a the Bais Hamikdash than other places. He is more revealed in a makom tefilah than on the street of the tanners.

Obviously there is no reason for this to be so other than Hashem's decree. He chose to be more revealed in certain "holy" places and less so in others. We can, however, find a reason for this that relates to your question. An explanation that is given as to why the world was created at all: in order to give neshomas the ability to do Avodah--to serve Hashem; to express their desire to be close to Hashem amidst concealments and obstacles. With this we can understand why Hashem created the world with places where he is more revealed and less revealed--to give the neshoma in a guf the opportunity to make an effort יגיעה to draw closer to Elokus (see image below ). In gashmiyus there are places of holiness and the opposite, and so too in the inner life of a Jew. When davening we are supposed to direct ourselves to that spot both internally and externally.

By the way, I learned the meaning of this in a very tangible way: see my post #6 in this thread: Caribbean Parade on Eastern Parkway (you'll enjoy it )

_____________________________________________

Question: How do you show how much you desire something?
Answer:
Using that old Camel add to illustrate your point was very funny! Thank you very much for this explanation! It was very very helpful! I think you have answered my question. Our deepest, most important desires should all be focused on what Eretz Yisrael, Yerushalyim, Har HaBayit, the Temple and the Holy of Holies represent. When we are davening the Shemoneh Esrei we should only address Hashem but we should also keep in mind that all of our feelings, bakashos and desires, which are in the 19 blessings of the Amidah, should be in synch with what Eretz Yisrael, Yerushalayim, Har HaBayit, The Temple and the Holy of Holies mean. And if we keep these thoughts in mind when we are speaking to Hashem we will truly be bound to Hashem and His plan for the world. Now all I have to figure out is the true meaning of these things: Land, Yerushalayim, HarHabayit, Temple and Holy of Holies.

Last edited by AkivaYitzhak; 03-23-2006 at 12:55 PM.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 01:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by AkivaYitzhak
Now all I have to figure out is the true meaning of these things: Land, Yerushalayim, HarHabayit, Temple and Holy of Holies.
Indeed...not as simple as simply facing mizrach
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Unread 03-23-2006, 01:14 PM   #20
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Indeed...not as simple as simply facing mizrach
My problem was that I was only taking the words of the Kitzur literally that the words of the tefilos literally flow through a spritual pipe to heaven. While this might be true, you got me to think on a much deeper level and a much more important level. Our Shemoneh Esrei will only flow to Hashem and be poel if we know what the tachlis of the words are. And the tachlis flows out of the Holy of Holies, and from there to all of the other main points of significance (Temple, HarHabayit, etc..). If the tachlis flows out of these things then our job when we pray is to make sure our thoughts are flowing into these things. Now that my question is answered, I must now find out what is the tachlis of the Holy of Holies, Temple, HarHabayit, etc..
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Unread 03-23-2006, 02:47 PM   #21
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I don't know if the following analogy would apply, it seems to me it does.
Suppose, you have to write a letter to your friend. So you do. Now you can deliver it personally or use postal service. If you mitkaven (direct yourself) to a post box, it does not mean you deliver letter to the postbox, not your friend. On the other hand, why not use the service of th post office, even though your letter gets to your friend not directly but through an intermediary, so to speak?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 02:51 PM   #22
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Do I have the option of a tracking number?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 03:01 PM   #23
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I don't know if the following analogy would apply, it seems to me it does.
Suppose, you have to write a letter to your friend. So you do. Now you can deliver it personally or use postal service. If you mitkaven (direct yourself) to a post box, it does not mean you deliver letter to the postbox, not your friend. On the other hand, why not use the service of th post office, even though your letter gets to your friend not directly but through an intermediary, so to speak?
Applying your analogy to tefillah, what does the "post office" represent?
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Unread 03-23-2006, 03:02 PM   #24
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Do I have the option of a tracking number?
Lol. I think you have to be a Rebbe to get this feature.
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Unread 03-23-2006, 03:03 PM   #25
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the analogy of a post office or postbox is for the second grade. can't you think of anything better?
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