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Unread 01-23-2003, 12:27 PM   #1
icewolf770
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human shields

i have heard that there is this group of people here in the u.s. who are putting together a program where they are bringing citizens of the united states to iraq and when the fighting starts they are going to position themselves infront of the united states troops and act as human shields for the opposing forces...

now, does anyone else see something fundamentally wrong with this other than me? why on earth would people from the u.s. go and help the country that we are fighting against?

and in turn why shouldn't the opposing forces kill them either? they might just do that and it would proove a point but be a terrible loss...
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Unread 01-23-2003, 12:41 PM   #2
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isn't this what used to be called being a traitor?
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Unread 01-23-2003, 01:37 PM   #3
Yankel Nosson
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Jude, in order for there to be such a thing as a traitor, there has to be such a thing as loyalty. Like many other fine things, loyalty is in golus today.
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Unread 01-23-2003, 06:13 PM   #4
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but even if they do it the us soldiers might not fire in their direction but the arab soldiers will...
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Unread 01-23-2003, 06:14 PM   #5
icewolf770
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as for loyalty... i don't exactly see the frum communities showing any loyalties to anyone... unfortunately...
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Unread 01-23-2003, 06:39 PM   #6
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I think the Patriotism thread showed that many frum Jews are patriotic.
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Unread 01-23-2003, 07:03 PM   #7
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ok... i can see where you are getting at... but patriatism and loyalty are two diffrent things....
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Unread 01-23-2003, 08:39 PM   #8
Yankel Nosson
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Any Jew who is frum is loyal to Torah. And a front-line soldier in Tzivos Hashem.

Except maybe for followers of Rav S.R. Hirsch, most frum Jews recognize that the gentile kingdoms are "rods of punishment" for the Yidden, and that "dina d'malchusa dina" is on the level of chitzonius.

Civic duty, yes; hakaras hatov, yes. Beyond that?
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Unread 01-23-2003, 11:33 PM   #9
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beyond that the desire to make sure that the place where we are now is not turned into chaos... and harm inflicted on us in the process...
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Unread 01-24-2003, 09:24 AM   #10
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
beyond that the desire to make sure that the place where we are now is not turned into chaos... and harm inflicted on us in the process...
So we learn Torah, do mitzvos, and spread Yiddishkeit...what more could a host country ask for?
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Unread 01-24-2003, 01:38 PM   #11
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the country is not asking anything of us... it us who are asking things of it... we want to continue enjoying the freedoms that we have now... those of torah, avodah, and gemilas chasaddim... yet when it comes time to say defend your country the frum community seems to think that they are exempt from participating... but one thing that they do not know is that more kids from frum households will enlist in the army than kids from fry homes... why? because they want to give back in an action, for the torah teaches us to do, not just to say... and i think that is the greatest kiddush hashem of all...
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Unread 01-24-2003, 02:11 PM   #12
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What gives Hashem more nachas--his people doing Torah, Chesed, and Gemilus Chassadim; or his people with warpaint on their faces, fighting gentile wars? If a person is in the army, so he should have success in his parnassa like any other Yid. But to set up military service in a gentile army as a l'chatchila?! Doesn't sound like da'as torah.
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Unread 01-24-2003, 02:34 PM   #13
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ask rabbi goldstien who is a chaplain in the army about that one... my husband is in the army and he makes more kiddushei hashem than he did living in the frum community....
the whole reason the rebbe sent the shluchim out was so that they could spread torah and yiddishkeit over the world...
the whole essence of keeping yiddishkeit is when it is hard for us and diffrent for others to see... being in the military is not against yiddishkeit in any way shape or form...
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Unread 01-26-2003, 02:10 PM   #14
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LONDON (Jan. 25) - Waving goodbye to families and denouncing "imperialist" warmongering, the first convoy of Western volunteers set out from London on double-decker buses on Saturday to act as "human shields" against any attack on Iraq.

About 50 volunteers, ranging from a 19-year-old factory worker to a 60-year-old former diplomat, formed the first in a series of convoys organisers say will take hundreds of anti-war activists to Iraq.

Dismissed by critics as naively playing into Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's hands, the volunteers plan to fan out to heavily populated areas of Baghdad and other parts of the country as a deterrent to Western bombing.

"Our strategy is potentially dangerous but that is the risk we must take in standing beside our brothers and sisters in Iraq," said former U.S. marine Ken Nichols, whose Human Shield Action Iraq group is coordinating the London departures.

"We have been inundated by volunteers. This is just the first wave. I am calling for 10,000 to get down there and stop this war," he told Reuters.

Saturday's convoy -- like others being planned for early February -- will travel across Europe, picking up more people on the way, loading provisions and stopping to promote their cause.

Nichols' group is one of several around the world whose aim is to mobilise peace activists as human shields in Iraq and show solidarity with Iraqi people in the face of a possible U.S.-led war against Saddam.

FORMER HOSTAGES

The campaign has upset some among the thousands of Westerners detained by Saddam to act as shields against attacks after his 1990 invasion of Kuwait and during the 1991 Gulf War.

They feel the volunteers do not appreciate the seriousness of what they are doing and are unaware of their past suffering.

"The majority went through hell on wheels," said Steve Brookes, who ran a support group for British victims. "Of the 1,800 or so British hostages, most suffered from some form of post-traumatic stress."

Volunteers from Nichols' group, mainly from Western nations but including some from Turkey and China, insist they are not going to support Saddam but to try to prevent the death of innocent people.

"When we arrive, we will work out where the bombing is most likely to be, where there would be most casualties, and we will go there. Our purpose is to protect civilians," 32-year-old lecturer Uzma Bashir, from Yorkshire in northern England, told Reuters.

Many have had trouble convincing their families of the importance of their mission.

"Nine out of 10 of the people going as human shields are more scared of what their mothers say than the bombs in Iraq," said Bashir, who plans to join a second convoy from London.

In the Muslim world, the main rallying point for would-be human shields is in Jordan. There, a campaign led by leftist parties and civic bodies is seeking 100,000 volunteers.

Baghdad has said it will receive the volunteers with open arms and help them decide where to place themselves.

Washington and London are trying to garner international support for possible military strikes over Saddam's alleged programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction.
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Unread 01-26-2003, 08:58 PM   #15
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thank you... where was all of this from? it scares me that there are people out there that are so naive as to think that the iraqi army wount kill them or use them as bait....
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Unread 01-26-2003, 09:46 PM   #16
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news from Reuters
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Unread 01-26-2003, 09:49 PM   #17
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what is that?
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Unread 01-26-2003, 09:51 PM   #18
Jude
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a news agency that supplies news items to various media
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Unread 01-26-2003, 10:21 PM   #19
icewolf770
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so apparently these people tried the same thing for the gulf war... and they didn't succeed then in preventing the fighting and in fact many of them were harmed....

there is something i remember reading i don't remember the exact source... but it goes something like this...
there is a time for strength and a time for compassion, if one uses compassion when strength is needed then when the time for compassion comes one will use strength instead and that is wrong... when dealing with the arab nations strength is needed for that is the only thing they understand...

so now we are faced with a dillema... the world seems to think that compassion is needed, but it is not, now is the time for strength...

to me it is like a person getting run over with a car and hobbling after the car to apologise to the driver for having the audacity of being in thier way... get my point???
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Unread 04-15-2004, 07:36 PM   #20
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so what happened to these human shields?
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Unread 04-15-2004, 09:24 PM   #21
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i think that thay should blow them to piece's in front of camara's...we could use a few less wacko's
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Unread 04-16-2004, 04:43 PM   #22
Jude
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missed our chance
they snuck away long ago, and (not surprisingly) without the media reporting it
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