Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Moshiach

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 12-25-2002, 12:52 AM   #1
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Which comes first, Moshiach or geulah?

Which comes first, Moshiach or geulah?

In the Amida, go'el yisrael is a several tfilos earlier than matzmiach keren yeshua. (Maybe someone can remind me where it is in the gemara, Taanis or Megilla, it talks about each tfila of the amida being a stage in the redemption.)

Some places, bias haMoshiach is described as strife, struggle, then Moshiach is here and we all fly to Yerushalyim on clouds. Other places, such as the Rambam, the arrival of Moshiach is when the battle really picks up.

So, what's it gonna be?
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-25-2002, 01:02 AM   #2
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D The request "Go'al Yisrael" is to be saved from personal troubles, whatever they may be. It is not a request for the complete Ge'ulah.

The Rambam's Halachic ruling on these matters is undisputed and thus final. He holds that Moshiach initiates the process until he brings the complete Redemption, by gathering the exiles and building the Beis haMikdash.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-25-2002, 03:22 PM   #3
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
See sicha Vayeira 5752 os 14: " ... in our days all obstacles and hindrances etc. have been nullified, and since this is the case, there is (not only the metzius of Moshiach, but) also the revelation of Moshiach, and now we must only actually greet Moshiach Tzidkeinu!"

Also the sichos related to the Gulf War in which the Rebbe quoted the Yalkut Shimoni, "In the year that Melech Ha'Moshiach will be revealed, the kings of the nations will struggle with each other ... etc."

The Rebbe also spoke about the various effects Moshiach is having on the world, and about how we have a "reflection" of the promises of redemption such as the "gathering of the dispersed of Israel" with Jews being able to leave Russia.

All this, before the geula ha'amitis v'ha'sheleima.
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2002, 02:48 PM   #4
stamayid
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 683
Which comes first, Moshiach or geulah?

This is a big machlokes between the Zionists and the Anti-Zionists. For examples of talmidei chachomim who held that geulah comes first, see R' Yisacher Shlomo Teichtal's Em Habonim Smeicha and R' Menachem Kasher's Hatekufo Hagedolo. The Minhas Elozor and the Satmar Rebbe were extremely opposed. See the latter's Vayoel Moshe Ma'amar Shalosh Shvuos where he vigorously argues that Moshiach must come before the geulah. The Rebbe was opposed to the Zionists as well. See some of his sichos from 5727 and 5728 in his response to the heightened Zionism following the Six Day Way.
__________________
<b>Stam A Yid</b>
stamayid is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-03-2004, 12:58 PM   #5
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Ischalta d'Geulah?

Footnote 62 to the Pesach Sheni maamor of 5738:

Quote:
In the redemption from Mitzrayim "Our forefathers' enslavement was nullified on Rosh Hashona," and Rashi says there "six months before their redemption the enslavement ceased." We find that the redemption from Mitzrayim was not in a way of "min hakatzeh el haketzeh" (to the degree that the nullification of the enslavement on Rosh Hashona was called "ischalta d'geulah"). This is not the case with the geulah ha'asida, which will be [according to the psak din of the Rambam] in a way of "miyad."
Who is/was responsible for these footnotes?
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-04-2004, 09:02 AM   #6
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
related:

Quote:
Some sources suggest that redemption will come as a sudden, powerful revelation that will change reality. For example: "The lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple" (Malachi 3:1). On this verse Metzudas David comments: "This is the messianic king, whom the eye of every man is hoping and yearning to see." Another verse says, "The harbinger of Zion - behold, behold!" (Yeshayahu 41:27). On this, Maggid Mesharim ("Tzav") comments: "Unlike the impending arrival of a mortal being, which is traditionally heralded ten days in advance, then five days in advance, and so on, the redemption will arrive in the wink of an eye."

Likewise, Shomer Emunim (p. 350) cites Malbush LeShabbos VeYom Tov, which writes of R. Elimelech of Lyzhansk as follows: "Even though a number of verses foretell that there will be great wars, including the wars of Gog and Magog, at the time of the coming of Moshiach, through his prayers [R. Elimelech] secured an assurance from Heaven that at that time there will be no wars; rather, the miller will be standing there with his measuring vessel in hand, selling floor, and the clothier will be standing there with his measuring tape, selling his fabrics - and all of a sudden Eliyahu will arrive and announce: 'Behold, Moshiach has come!'"

source: Moshiach.org
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2005, 01:33 PM   #7
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
In the new sefer Yemos Hamoshiach b'Halacha by R' Gerlitzky, he draws a distinction as follows:

First is the geulah of Bais Dovid/Ben Dovid which precedes the war of Gog uMagog.
Second is the geulah shleima of Dovid (stam) which follows the fall of Gog.

(Interesting that by this cheshbon, it is MBD fighting Gog, not MBY, whom he doesn't mention in that section).

Additionally, he writes that the inyan of Moshiach coming every day applies to ben Dovid, whereas the coming of Dovid (stam) is the basis of the dispute between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua is it Nissan or Tishrei.
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2005, 01:26 AM   #8
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson
In the new sefer Yemos Hamoshiach b'Halacha by R' Gerlitzky, he draws a distinction as follows:

First is the geulah of Bais Dovid/Ben Dovid which precedes the war of Gog uMagog.
Second is the geulah shleima of Dovid (stam) which follows the fall of Gog.

(Interesting that by this cheshbon, it is MBD fighting Gog, not MBY, whom he doesn't mention in that section).

Additionally, he writes that the inyan of Moshiach coming every day applies to ben Dovid, whereas the coming of Dovid (stam) is the basis of the dispute between R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua is it Nissan or Tishrei.
It was pointed out to me recently by T613 that in Likutei Sichos 5:149 the Rebbe brings that the seder will be:

1. coming of Moshiach
2. end of exile
3. etchalta d'geulah
4. the complete and final redemption
5. Kibbutz Galuot

Lechora I am thinking that perhaps we may possibly be holding by step #3? Hoping for steps #4 and 5 techef umiad mamash!

Ksiva vechasima tova - leshana tova umesuka - tova hanirah vehaniglah!
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-28-2005, 10:05 AM   #9
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
When did steps 1 and 2 happen?! I must have missed it...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 12:51 AM   #10
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
When did steps 1 and 2 happen?! I must have missed it...
In 5751 the Rebbe said clearly that "this is the year when the King Moshiach is being revealed in it". This then would seem (to me) to be the year that Moshiach came - so to speak.

See hisvaduos 5752:2:35 where the Rebbe talks about the ketz hayamim (the end of the exile) and ketz hayamin (the beginning of the redemption).

In my humble opinion - the intensification of the darkness in the world in the ikvesa d'meshicha is related to the ketz hayamim = the end of the exile, however the intensification of kedusha, to the extent that it is even able to harness and transform this very darkness into the revelation of geulah - which is the true sublime root of all of G-d's creation, is the ketz hayamin, the beginning of the geulah!

It seems to me that this is part of the meaning of the proclamation "Yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach" which signifies that the time has arrived when all darkness is ready for its complete transformation into eternal and glorious light - from golah into the geulah ha'amisis vehashleimah - b'chessed u'brachamim rabbim!

Ksiva vechasima tova leshana tova umesuka tova hanirah vehaniglah!

www.chabad.info
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 04:26 AM   #11
shoyn
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,121
i'm a bit confused.

you say moshiach came '51, but based on the proclomation of yechi which the Rebbe said in '48, moshiach came in '48.

so while my query has no practical consequence, for either way we are well into geula, but as a historical matter, when did the geila happen?
shoyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 04:51 AM   #12
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
I believe that the Rebbe explains Keitz Hayamim = death, whereas Keitz Hayamin = redemption.
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 10:27 AM   #13
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncencored770
In 5751 the Rebbe said clearly that "this is the year when the King Moshiach is being revealed in it". This then would seem (to me) to be the year that Moshiach came - so to speak.
I don't understand what "so to speak" means: Either he came or he didn't...
Maybe I don't understand what "Moshiach came" means. Poor me.
Quote:

See hisvaduos 5752:2:35 where the Rebbe talks about the ketz hayamim (the end of the exile) and ketz hayamin (the beginning of the redemption).
So?
Quote:
In my humble opinion - the intensification of the darkness in the world in the ikvesa d'meshicha is related to the ketz hayamim = the end of the exile, however the intensification of kedusha, to the extent that it is even able to harness and transform this very darkness into the revelation of geulah - which is the true sublime root of all of G-d's creation, is the ketz hayamin, the beginning of the geulah!

It seems to me that this is part of the meaning of the proclamation "Yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach" which signifies that the time has arrived when all darkness is ready for its complete transformation into eternal and glorious light - from golah into the geulah ha'amisis vehashleimah - b'chessed u'brachamim rabbim!

Ksiva vechasima tova leshana tova umesuka tova hanirah vehaniglah!

www.chabad.info
In any case - I have been involved in this type of discussion on these boards too many times to be interested in doing this again (you could do a search if you wish).
Just to make one general point - a "coming of Moshiach" and "end of Golus" that needs proof and is apparant only if one read this or that sicha (and even then...) somehow doesn't sound like a Moshiach having come or an end of golus at all - or at least the "end of golus" that Jews were waiting for 2000 years. IOW, Moshiach is not a pilpul or a diyuk in a sicha... (this is even without taking into account the statements of the Rebbe that are clearly to the contrary to what you are saying. VAKML).
[I have no idea what you want with the site you linked to].

Last edited by Torah613; 08-30-2005 at 02:27 PM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 09:40 PM   #14
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyn
i'm a bit confused.

you say moshiach came '51, but based on the proclomation of yechi which the Rebbe said in '48, moshiach came in '48.

so while my query has no practical consequence, for either way we are well into geula, but as a historical matter, when did the geila happen?
Hi Shoyn, I think that your question is a fair one, but again - based on my limited understanding of the subject at hand, it seems to me that 5751 specfically was the "year when the King Moshiach was revealed in it", the proclamation of Yechi HaMelech actually only began in actuality on the 15th of Iyar 5751 as well, so it would seem to me that the sicha of Beis Nissan 5748 was part of the prepartion leading up to the poel mamash.

Besoros tovos!
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 09:52 PM   #15
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I don't understand what "so to speak" means: Either he came or he didn't...
Maybe I don't understand what "Moshiach came" means. poor me.So?
Sorry for beating around the bush - ok - what I meant to say was, that 5751 was, imho, the year when "the king Moshiach was revealed in it". What does this mean? A good question. It would seem to me that this would mean that this was the year (although the following quotion may actually be from 5752) when the Rebbe openly declared statements such as - "we already have the King who is from the descendants of King David, who is chezkas Moshiach" and "this is the year when the King Messiah is being revealed" and "the announcement of the redemption is coming from the Diaspora" etc. etc.

Quote:
...Just to make one general point - a "coming of Moshiach" and "end of Golus" that needs proof...
For example, how about the sicha of Shoftim 5751 where the Rebbe said that we must publicize the nevuah "laltar legeulah" and "hine zeh Moshiach ba" (kvar ba)...

Quote:
... and simply:
Quote:
To announce and publicize in every place - with words that emerge from the heart - that the Holy One Blessed Be He says (through His servants the prophets) to each individual from Israel "See that I am placing before you today a blessing", and until that literally today we see with physical eyes the blessing of the Complete and Final Redemption. ..." (from the sicha of parshat Re'eh, first day of rosh chodesh Elul 5751)

Last edited by JewishHiphop; 08-29-2005 at 09:54 PM.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-29-2005, 10:53 PM   #16
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncencored770
For example, how about the sicha of Shoftim 5751 where the Rebbe said that we must publicize the nevuah "laltar legeulah" and "hine zeh Moshiach ba" (kvar ba)...
..and in that sicha itself, it refers to the present time (when the sicha was said) as "the last seconds of Golus" - IOW still in golus...
Bchol ofen, my point still stands.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 05:16 AM   #17
shoyn
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncencored770
Hi Shoyn, I think that your question is a fair one, but again - based on my limited understanding of the subject at hand,
.......
shoyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 05:44 PM   #18
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
..and in that sicha itself, it refers to the present time (when the sicha was said) as "the last seconds of Golus" - IOW still in golus...
Bchol ofen, my point still stands.
So how would you interpret the word "laltar" and the nevuah of that sicha? How would you explain it?
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 06:11 PM   #19
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Light Re'eh 5750



Interesting to note that in this excerpt from this sicha, the Rebbe does not seem to imply that Moshiach has already come - when he says "so too should it be with us"... (I.e. it should be, meaning that it is not yet?)

Any thoughts?

Quote:
...The signs of our Sages have already been fulfilled regarding the end of the time of the exile and the time of the redemption, including the sign in the Yalkut Shimoni[1] (which has been publicized recently): "Rabbi Itzchak said - the year when the King Messiah will be revealed, all of the Kings of the Nations will be contending one with the other, the King of Persia will contend with the Arabic King and the Arabic King will go to Aram to take council from them etc., and all of the nations of the world will be in an uproar and will be terrified and they will fall upon their faces and they will be grasped with pains like the labor pains of a woman giving birth, and Israel will be in an uproar and will be terrified and they will say where will shall we come or go, where shall we come or go, and He will say to them, My children do not be afraid, all that I have done I have only done for your sakes, why are you afraid - do not be afraid - the time of your redemption has arrived, and not like the first redemption is the last redemption since (after) the first redemption - you still had suffering and subjugation to the Kingdoms following it. [And thereafter the Yalkut continues:] Our Rabbis taught - in the hour when the King Messiah comes, he will stand on the roof of the Beis HaMikdash (holy Temple) and he will announce to Israel saying - humble one's the time of your redemption has arrived".
Quote:

So too shall it be for us, that we have lechatchila (from the outset) not from what to have fear, as we already have the assurance that "do not be afraid (also from a lashon of havtacha/assurance), the time of your redemption has arrived",

And so too shall it be for us, that Moshiach Tzidkeinu / Our Righteous Messiah should in actuality come already and should already stand on the roof of the Beis HaMikdash and announce saying, that Moshiach has already come!

Amen - so may it be His will.

1) Isaiah remez 499


(from the sicha of Shabbos Parshas Re'eh, Mevarchim HaChodesh Elul 5750 - quoted in the sefer Besoras HaGeulah p.1)

JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 06:29 PM   #20
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncencored770

Interesting to note that in this excerpt from this sicha, the Rebbe does not seem to imply that Moshiach has already come - when he says "so too should it be with us"... (I.e. it should be, meaning that it is not yet?)

Any thoughts?


Simple: Moshiach didn't come yet... (though I don't know why you need davka that sicha to prove it...).

Last edited by Torah613; 08-30-2005 at 06:33 PM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 09:39 PM   #21
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncencored770
So how would you interpret the word "laltar" and the nevuah of that sicha? How would you explain it?
Le'alter was said already by the Previous Rebbe. How do you interpret it?
See the many many threads on the subject, starting from (but not limited to) here:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5347
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-30-2005, 09:42 PM   #22
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Uncencored (uncensored?) -
For an additional "proof" that Moshiach did not come yet (as if proof from a sicha is needed), you don't have to go back to 5750. You could go to Adar Rishon 5752 ... see http://www.otzar770.com/library/disp...=B&nBookId=177 where it is stated clearly...

Last edited by Torah613; 08-31-2005 at 09:01 AM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-01-2005, 12:13 AM   #23
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Le'alter was said already by the Previous Rebbe. How do you interpret it?
See the many many threads on the subject, starting from (but not limited to) here:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5347
Right - but the Previous Rebbe said "laltar leteshuva - lealtar legeulah", in otherwords, teshuva was still a precondition for geulah, whereas our Rebbe said "laltar legeulah" stam, without any conditions attached.

In 5752 the Rebbe even said that "we have already done teshuva"!
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-01-2005, 12:15 AM   #24
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Uncencored (uncensored?) -
For an additional "proof" that Moshiach did not come yet (as if proof from a sicha is needed), you don't have to go back to 5750. You could go to Adar Rishon 5752 ... see http://www.otzar770.com/library/disp...=B&nBookId=177 where it is stated clearly...
That's a great question - and you're right - you're quote is even stronger than mine. But yet the Rebbe also did say that 5751 was the year "when the King Messiah was revealed in it", so how do we fit these statements together? It almost seems like a paradox.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-01-2005, 12:17 AM   #25
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
How is that germane to what T613 said? The Rebbe's statements were cryptic at best, and even if they are to be taken absolutely literally, that still doesn't meant that Moshiach has come. It is fairly obvious that Moshiach has not come, in fact.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yechi HaMelech. The true meaning kolelboy Controversy 23 09-14-2005 03:44 AM
Yud Shevat 5730 - the Sefer Torah to Greet Moshiach Jude The World of Lubavitch 4 02-01-2004 02:36 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com