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Unread 03-13-2002, 07:23 PM   #1
Jack's Sis
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Are the children of shluchim in danger?

Is having teenage children living at home a mistake for shluchim? What if c"v the children become influenced by the mekuravim? What is e/o's opinion on this subject?
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Unread 03-13-2002, 08:16 PM   #2
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BS"D How could teenage children of Shluchim live at home, anyway? Where would they learn - in a goyishe school chas vesholom?! They should be sent to a yeshiva ketano or the like as soon as it is feasible. There is one founded in Tsfas especially for this purpose.
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Unread 03-13-2002, 08:46 PM   #3
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Not every shliach lives in a spiritual desert. There are plenty of shluchim who live near metropolitan cities that have a Jewish community, hence the possibililty for teen education that is close to home.
In a nutshell, I think Shlichus is the ideal environment for raising balanced, deep rooted, frum and confident kids, with firm ideals and sense of purpose.
IT's because they know they are different, and they know why they live between these types of Jews, rather than their cousins in Crown Heights who have BR and OT and kosher ice cream down the block.
they know what they have to do.
they know they have to live up to a certain standard.
they know they are the little Rabbi or Rebbetzin to their non-frum friends, whether they chose the role or not.
They know that it's easy to just try to fit in to the crowd. But that defeats the purpose.
And they know that they are the Rebbe's special children and he's looking out for them.
A Shliach has to make every effort to raise his children right. And the rest he leaves up to the Rebbe's brochos and the Rebbe's promises.
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Unread 03-13-2002, 08:49 PM   #4
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I don't think there's one answer for all situations.
It's interesting to note that it's sometimes harder in a frum but modern community than a non-frum community. In an irreligious community, at least there's that feeling that "I'm apart, I"m different." (as Chachchach noted in the Education thread in this section). In a modern community, the lines are much more blurred.
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Unread 03-13-2002, 09:54 PM   #5
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BS"D <> I agree 100%. In fact, I feel the danger of being influenced by mekuravim is insignificant compared to the danger of being influenced by classmates in a "frum" school.
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Unread 05-06-2002, 10:31 PM   #6
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BSD

This is a very important discussion! There are many well thought out answers, but, hoikar chosair min hasefer :
The Rebbe gave many brochos to individual shluchim and to groups of shluchim the essance of which was that not only would our children not lose, in fact, they would gain by being on shlichus . [In fact, the Rebbe was wont to point out that the children of shluchim are shluchim , and the same brochos that apply to the parents apply also to the children.] As long as the parents are not mevatel their shlichus this brocha remains invincable.
Having said that, we can go onto a discussion of how that brocha is melubash in tevah and all of the eloquently worded descriptions of the children knowing that they are differant and so on.
Furthermore, an inappropriate decision to keep a child home if there is no yeshiva there may itself pose a bitul of the shlichus . Whereas to keep a child home where there is a yeshiva , or better still, to found one, is part of the shlichus and comes with the guarantee.
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Unread 05-07-2002, 05:14 PM   #7
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You know, logically, it doesnt make sense that children who grow up in such an environment should be as chassidish (if not more) as ppl who dont grow up in such an open-free-for-all environment.

But.

Logic get shoved aside when you realize that we arent going on shlichus through our own kochos. We have the Rebbe's kochos. We have the Rebbe's assurance that its going to (Gd willing) turn out all right.
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Unread 05-07-2002, 10:10 PM   #8
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BS"D <>

Yes, Shlichus is definitely an exercise in Emuna.

The thing is, you can never really know how things would have turned out if you had not gone on Shlichus.

The Rebbe promises us that we will be far better off on Shlichus, and that ultimately we will see how Shlichus is “letoivoschem” – for our own good.

Listen, if there is anyone who knows what is really best for us, it is the Rebbe. So it would be infinitely foolish of us to disregard his explicit brochos and promises and rely on our own judgment.

These are "himmel-zachen" ("heaven"-matters).

I have heard several stories of former Shluchim who testify that leaving Shlichus was the biggest, most tragic mistake of their lives.
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Unread 05-08-2002, 08:55 AM   #9
rebayzl
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STATISTICS

All these stories are Personal Anecdotes, nothing more.

I think a Statistical study should be done comparing Childern of non-shluchim to children of shluchim. Which ones are better of spiritually?
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Unread 05-08-2002, 09:04 AM   #10
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BS"D The Rebbe's brochos and promises are FINAL and may not be challenged or doubted, ch"v.
I just mentioned some anecdotes I heard to further support that.
I do not doubt they are true - that IS what the Rebbe said, after all!!
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Unread 05-08-2002, 10:25 AM   #11
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open your eyes

Noah, open your eyes.

Of course you can blame all kinds of things, but we know very well svereal shluchim's children who went off the deep end, and it's easilty related to their environment.
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Unread 05-08-2002, 10:36 AM   #12
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BS"D Just PLEASE don't say anything that puts any doubt into any of the Rebbe's holy words.

Sure, there are problems, but that is not a reason not to go on Shlichus, ch"v. I don't care how many statistics might be made, it will not change my belief in the Rebbe's word even one iota ch"v.

I think ChachChach says it spot-on:

<>
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Unread 05-08-2002, 10:47 AM   #13
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<<>>

Of course I know many many, but are they more in numbers then the Crown Hights shelterd kids (or Stamar insulated kids)? I don't know the statistics, but I know there many many of them also.
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Unread 05-08-2002, 03:49 PM   #14
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Re: STATISTICS

Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
All these stories are Personal Anecdotes, nothing more.

I think a Statistical study should be done comparing Childern of non-shluchim to children of shluchim. Which ones are better of spiritually?

If you think about it, who's going to turn out better-someone who lives around different types of people but KNOWS and is constanly told that they must behave differently, and they're there to set an example.

or someone who lives among people who are different, but doesnt necessarily think that they're different. In fact, why should they be setting an example? I mean, its not like they're so different...its not like they're on shlichus, right? Why do they have to be so careful around people who are 'just like them'
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Unread 05-09-2002, 09:13 AM   #15
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BS"D ChachChach, that is just SO TRUE!!
I know with myself - when I was on Shlichus I was a completely different person - elevated, life was filled with purpose, meaning, resolve.
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Unread 05-09-2002, 05:39 PM   #16
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<
I think a Statistical study should be done comparing Childern of non-shluchim to children of shluchim. Which ones are better of spiritually?>>

<
Of course you can blame all kinds of things, but we know very well svereal shluchim's children who went off the deep end, and it's easilty related to their environment.>>

rebayzl, it bothers me how easily you express doubt on the Rebbe's words.
Look, I too have seen way too many shluchim's kids who have "gone off the deep end." I've seen way too many shluchim's kids who are wonderful people, but are still influenced by their environment --quite understandably, I might add. And I've seen many shluchim's kids who are an inspiration, who are so imbued with a sense of purpose, acceptance, tolerance and Chassidishkeit.

But I wouldn't make any surveys or bother asking myself which kind of environment I'd like my children to grow up in one day. Because if it was only up to my perspective -- my insignificant petty perspective where I can view only an infinitesmial portion of the big picture -- I don't know that I'd choose to take the incredible risk of bringing yiddishe children up in such a secular environment. Because it's a risk, it definitely is. It's worries me. I could rationalize from today till tomorrow, enumerate the wonderful benefits of being a child of shluchus, but it just isn't enough.

There's only one possible reponse, and that is the Rebbe's brocha. Did we doubt the Rebbe when he told us to have a certain operation or advised us to get engaged to a certain person? Did we doubt the Rebbe when it came to other matters of life and death? Where has our faith gone?

I'm not saying that we have no right to try and understand how the Rebbe's brochos are being fulfilled, to express confusion at the fact that some children don't seem to have turned out 100%, and it seems to be the fault of their surroundings. It's hard to understand: We try our hardest to refrain from secularism, to the point of striving to reach the level where our contact with goyishkeit is not even inclusive of reading a newspaper! And then we go and throw ourselves and children into the lion's den.
And it's difficult to comprehend all the seeming contradictions.

But let's be careful to express these doubts carefully, making it obvious that it's US who are confused and confusing, not the Rebbe himself, C'V. Let's not throw cold water on the pure faith in the Rebbe and his words; Let's try to inspire MORE faith in the Rebbe's words, not less.
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Unread 05-10-2002, 12:16 AM   #17
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BS”D Ditto, Jac!

We believe that the Rebbe is Hashem’s mouthpiece, like Moshe Rabbeinu, so his words are final.

We must be devoted to fulfilling the Rebbe’s instructions. If we merit to understand, fine. But even if not, that will not affect our actions. And even if sometimes we are weak and it does affect our actions, let us not find excuses for that, but simply be honest enough to admit that it is due to weakness.

<>

Bravo! Precisely!

Though I feel I must point out that IMHO the word “doubts” is inappropriate. I would say sha’alos (i.e. questions for additional info, explanation).
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Unread 05-10-2002, 05:26 AM   #18
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Kudos, Jac.

My sentiments exactly.
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Unread 05-10-2002, 04:32 PM   #19
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10000% Jac.

The Rebbe also says that since you're going out on shlichus DAVKA to influence others, its not the same thing. Everyone knows the halacha that a pot is either absorbing or giving out. (sorry that i dont have the correct terms) Same thing by us-since we're going out to influence, we wont be absorbing. (Gd willing)
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Unread 05-10-2002, 05:23 PM   #20
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Thanks everybody for the great insights. I never for a moment said we should no go on Shlichus Chas Vesholem. But I think the idea of "Relying on the Rebbe's brochos" is not the Chabad way. Something most be done to shelter Shluchim's children from the environment.

Last edited by rebayzl; 05-12-2002 at 07:56 AM.
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Unread 05-11-2002, 05:34 AM   #21
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BS"D <>

I dunno about anyone else, but it seems to me that wherever people are brought up nowadays, they are in "the lion's den," r"l.

(In general, Chassidus says "kol ha'derachim be'chezkas sakono" - when the neshomo comes into this world all paths are assumed dangerous, which is why it must be forced to come down.)

But on Shlichus, the whole family is infused with a sense of purpose that uplifts and invigorates them from the more average, "fence-sitting" (as Jude says) people who they might have been otherwise.

In Sefer haShlichus the Rebbe says over and over that Shlichus is "letovaschem" - for your own spiritual welfare.

I personally see the difference between the aidelkeit of Shluchim and non-Shluchim, and there in my mind is no question that the fact that they are better people is significantly due to the fact that they are on Shlichus.

And what is relevant to this thread: I look around my community and look (generally) at the difference between the children of Shluchim and non-Shluchim and there is no comparison.
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Unread 05-11-2002, 10:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
Thanks everybody for the great insights. I never for a moment said we should no go on Shklichus Chas Vesholem. But I think the idea of "Relying on the Rebbe's brochos" is not the Chabad way. Something most be done to shelter Shluchim's children from the environment.
Actually, that point is the one that deserves the most attention. On the one hand there is the ma'aseh of a chosid of the Tzemach Tzedek(?) that travels from afar to see the Rebbe. After much pushing and shoving he finally gets a short yichidus, and he is about to be pushed out..... In the course of the yichidus the Rebbe tells him that it is not only in this world that Lubavitcher Chassidim have it harder than the Poilisher Chassidim. Achar meah v'esrim shanah, when their neshomos come to din and they are asked "Did you daven?" and they answer "No." they will be asked, "So, what do you have to say for yourself", their answer will be "tzadik b'emunaso yichye, al tikri yichye elah yichayah" {when it says that a tzadik lives by his emunah, it should also be interpreted that he, the tzadik, causes others to live through emunah in him. (a poilishe drosha)}. When he will be asked if he studied Torah the same response will be forthcoming. By Chabad Chassidim we don't subscribe to that drosha, concluded the Rebbe, so one who failed to carry out his obligations will have to answer for it. The chossid responded, I would rather have our gehinom than his gan eden!

Among the points made in that story is, as you say, that we have to do our own avodah.

However, on the other side of the coin, when the Rebbe gives a clear brocha, emunas tzadikim dictates (See Ma'amarei Admur hazoken, Sefer Inyonim, Emunas Tzaddikim*) that we accept it at face value. Especially a conditional brocha such as this one (i.e. If we go on shlichus, we receive brochos for etc.) In a situation such as that we simply have to make completely certain that we are fulfilling our end of the bargain.

Unfortunately, from time to time, the Rebbe reminded us of how easy it is for one to be mevatel a shlichus . The gemora in psochim points out that if on lives in a semi-detached home, with a goy in the second dwelling, and a hole running between the two homes, he does not have to do bedikas chometz in that hole. The reason is that perhaps the goy will accuse him of kishuf. The gemora asks shluchei mitzvah ayno nizokin {We have a guarantee that someone on the way (a shliach) to do a mitzvah will not be harmed}? Bedikas chometz is surely a mitzvah. The gemorah answers that it is possible that in the course of inspecting the hole, one may recall that they lost a needle there and become distracted from the mitzvah of searching for chometz to look for the needle. In doing so, he is mevatel his shlichus mitzvah, and loses the protection.

The focal point of a shliach has to be to stay on course and not become even remotely distracted from his/her shlichus. If we can maintain that focus, we can count on the Rebbes brocha. And, even if one sways for a moment, as the Rebbe points out, we can get back on course, and become reeligible for all of the brochos of shlichus.

_____________
*This should read Tzadikim, instead of Emunas Tzadikim-masbir

Last edited by aShliach; 05-12-2002 at 09:01 AM.
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Unread 05-11-2002, 10:34 PM   #23
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Now this is a very tall order to be hunderd percent with Shlichos, and if not you are endangering the Slichos, the Rebbe when sending out whole famalies had to take in account that people have Yetzer Haras, and whoops once your Yetzer takes over no protection for you childern? This is a big peril in itself? (and thats the reason the Gemara says we shouldnt do bediko there , since we are prone to digress)

And also:If you used that Gemara, dont forget what the Gemara continues there that "heche deshchiach hezek Sha'ana" = where ever danger is common even shliche Mitzvah are nizokin.

[Btw Love your sources and scholarship, just a minor correction, in "Inyonim" the maamer you are reffering to is in under Tzadikim nut under EMUNAS tzadikim. (for those who wonna look it up. Vyesh Lhaarich veein kaan mekomo]
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Unread 05-11-2002, 11:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by masbir
Now this is a very tall order to be hunderd percent with Shlichos, and if not you are endangering the Slichos, the Rebbe when sending out whole famalies had to take in account that people have Yetzer Haras, and whoops once your Yetzer takes over no protection for you childern? This is a big peril in itself? (and thats the reason the Gemara says we shouldnt do bediko there , since we are prone to digress)
That is very true. It is scary! But, like I mentioned the Rebbe left room for lapses and reminded us that we can reclaim the shlichus (, the brochos), and by extension our children.

Quote:
And also:If you used that Gemara, dont forget what the Gemara continues there that "heche deshchiach hezek Sha'ana" = where ever danger is common even shliche Mitzvah are nizokin.
That is talking about walking into an obviously dangerous situation. (The proof is from Shmuel being afraid to anoint Dovid because Shaul would kill him.) Shlichus isn't that dangerous assuming that we are already forced to live in this world.

Agav, before that point in the gemorah there is another pertinant point made: The fear of the accusation of kishuf is when one considers their work done (after answering about the needle, to paraphrase it, the gemorah asked that even if he is also looking for the needle, he is still searching for chometz also, and it answers that it could mean after he completes the search for chometz.) I Just heard by a farbrengen with one of the original shluchim that in the posuk in Tehillem (84:11)...bocharti histofef bvays elokai, midur boholei resho, Rashi says histofef means by the doorway, midor means a dweller. One who knows that they are by the doorway is bvais elokay, one who thinks he is in already (i.e. completed his shlichus ) is a dweller of ohelei etc.


Quote:
[........ just a minor correction, in "Inyonim" the maamer you are reffering to is in under Tzadikim nut under EMUNAS tzadikim. (for those who wonna look it up. Vyesh Lhaarich veein kaan mekomo]
Right. Thanks.

Last edited by aShliach; 05-12-2002 at 12:00 AM.
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Unread 05-11-2002, 11:53 PM   #25
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<<>>

Living in Yhupitzvill, your kids observing taruvos, mixed schoolins, is tenfold more dangerous then being in a religous center. Simple logic!
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