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Unread 08-21-2003, 01:55 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Question Jewish Ancestry

We know that the child of the union of a Jewish man and a gentile woman is a gentile. But some people think that a gentile of Jewish ancestry is somehow different from other non-Jews, somehow more elevated. I don't see why he should be treated that way. He's no less a gentile than any other.

Does anyone know of a source to differentiate between treatment of gentiles of Jewish and non-Jewish ancestry?
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Unread 08-21-2003, 09:21 AM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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A child born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is completely Jewish. Halachically, he has no shaychus to this non-Jew.

A child born to a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father is completely gentile.
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Unread 08-21-2003, 02:12 PM   #3
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so there's no such thing as a person having "Jewish blood?" (if they're not Jewish)
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Unread 08-21-2003, 02:38 PM   #4
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That's correct, Shlucha. The nefesh is in the blood, so "Jewish blood" would depend on a Jewish nefesh.
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Unread 08-21-2003, 04:12 PM   #5
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I recall reading in kfar chabad Elul time about that the Fridiker Rebbe told one of the soldiers that were evacuating him from Poland. This soldier had a Jewish father, the Fridiker Rebbe told him that he has a yiddishe neshoma, though I gotta check up on this.
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Unread 08-21-2003, 08:15 PM   #6
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But consider the fact that the genes, personality, and values are so greatly influenced by a person's ancestry, wouldn't you think that there is some significance to it?

If that person would convert, wouldn't you regard that differently from the conversion of someone not descended from Jews?
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Unread 08-21-2003, 08:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yehuda
If that person would convert, wouldn't you regard that differently from the conversion of someone not descended from Jews?
Not at all.

A ger goes to the mikvah and comes out like a newborn. If his sister also converted, he could marry her, mid'oraisa.

Practically speaking, it would be easier for such a person in that half of their extended family are Jews.
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Unread 08-21-2003, 10:49 PM   #8
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Yankel, Min Hatorah he could marry her, but the negative, genetic effects of inbreeding will still show.
In my experiance I have meet yidden with only "50%" Jewish blood (ie father is a non-jew) and goyem with "75%" Jewish blood (ie his maternal grander mother is a non-jew) yet the 50 had that natural yiddeshe aidelkiet etc.
Now, certain things which are not based on the neshama are passed down. Yidden often tend to be smarter then average -the reason being that of a long history of emphasis on learning, thought etc etc. These things I have seen passed down to non-jews.

Last edited by mordechai7215; 08-22-2003 at 02:04 PM.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 01:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
A ger goes to the mikvah and comes out like a newborn. If his sister also converted, he could marry her, al pi hatorah.
And Rabinically it would be forbidden, if she was his maternal sister, shelo yomru ba'u mi'kedusha chamura li'kedusha kala.

Although that reason doesn't indicate any intrinsic advantage in such a gentile, the fact that they could marry Biblically doesn't prove that no such advantage exists either.

Quote:
Yankel, Min Hatorah he could marry her, but the negative, genetic effects of inbreeding will still show.
Would there really be a significant danger? Can you demonstrate that to me scientifically? And is marrying one's cousin also considered hazardous by the scientists? thanks

Quote:
Now, certain things which are not based on the neshama are passed down. Yidden often ten to be smarter then average -the reason being that of a long history of emphasis on learning, thought etc etc. These things I have seen passed down to non-jews.
Are you saying that their affinity for the intellectual/spiritual is merely a matter of having been raised by a Jewish parent? I'd say that its a part of their intrinsic genetic spiritual makeup.

Here's the explanation of my theory according to Chasidus IMHO:

A Jew is composed of a Divine soul, an intellectual soul, and an animal soul. When a Jewish man begets a child from a non-Jewish woman, r"l, the qualities of the Divine soul is not transmitted. But it appears that the heightened sensitivity of the Jew's intellectual and animal souls are, to varying extents, transmitted.

mordechai7215 - please refrain from using derogatory expressions in reference to non-Jews, and delete them, as a non-Jew might view this thread, and we wouldn't want to make a chillul Hashem, ch"v.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 03:58 AM   #10
Yankel Nosson
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A few years back I sent the following question to R' Yossi Jacobson, based on something I heard in his Tanya shiur:

Quote:
my question:
I have the following question about the case of a
child of a Jewish mother and a gentile father. The
neshama is a Jewish neshama, but according to halacha
the child has no father, so where do the garments come
from?

And if we say that for this purpose that the garments
do come from the gentile father, then does that mean
that the child is a Jewish neshama in "gentile"
garments? If the garments of a Jewish neshama come
from klipas noga, how could they come from a gentile
father who is from the other klipos?




Answer
Concerning your interesting question:

The garments of this soul would indeed come from both the souls of the father and of the mother. That the garments that encase a Jewish soul should stem from a non-Jewish soul is a possibility. the best example would be the first Jew, Abraham. Where did his garments come from?

(A similar point is alluded to in Tanya chapter 18, concerning the fact that at times the soul of a Jew is held for many years in the bosom of unholy forces.)

Remember, the garment is not the soul. It only encases it and envelopes it, though it does have a profound influence on one's life.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 04:11 AM   #11
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In the last few weeks we read in the Torah about not giving your daughters to their sons, because they will lead your grandchildren astray. In doesn't mention take their daughters for your sons in that passage because the grandchildren of such a union are not your grandchildren.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yehuda
Are you saying that their affinity for the intellectual/spiritual is merely a matter of having been raised by a Jewish parent? I'd say that its a part of their intrinsic genetic spiritual makeup.

A Jew is composed of a Divine soul, an intellectual soul, and an animal soul. When a Jewish man begets a child from a non-Jewish woman, r"l, the qualities of the Divine soul is not transmitted.

But it appears that the heightened sensitivity of the Jew's intellectual and animal souls are, to varying extents, transmitted.
What!!?! "It appears" to whom? Please show us a source for this conjecture.

As the dear, departed Gevurah used to say: please bring sources in Torah and Toras haChassidus. Because it's very easy to "make up one's own religion."

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Unread 08-22-2003, 04:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by HoravDave
I recall reading in kfar chabad Elul time about that the Fridiker Rebbe told one of the soldiers that were evacuating him from Poland. This soldier had a Jewish father, the Fridiker Rebbe told him that he has a yiddishe neshoma, though I gotta check up on this.
It does say in sforim that as a result of certain serious aveiras, a neshoma can come back in gilgul as a non-Jew.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 11:17 AM   #13
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YN - it appears, shall we say, from personal experience? And your quote from R' Jacobson confirms what I wrote.

But if you want another source - indeed, the commentary on the end of Tanya ch. 2 discusses the fact that Avraham was the son of Terach, and achieved lofty heights because he had a lofty neshama, despite the fact that his "levush" - which the commentaries there say refers to both the intellectual and animal souls - is from his father, a lowly heathen. And Avraham's mother wasn't Jewish either.

Conversely, since the child's levush is received from BOTH parents, even someone born from a non-Jewish mother may be more refined than other non-Jews due to the part of his levush that he receives from his Jewish father.

Quote:
In doesn't mention take their daughters for your sons in that passage because the grandchildren of such a union are not your grandchildren.
Hey, I knew that. But Torah interprets that as referring to transmission of Jewish identity. I'm asking if, despite his Halachic non-Jewish identity, is their any trace of Jewishness in him.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 11:38 AM   #14
Yankel Nosson
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Originally posted by Yehuda

your quote from R' Jacobson confirms what I wrote.
Wrong for two reasons: 1) my question was reversed: non-Jewish influence on a Jew. That a Jew can have shaychus to non-Jewish elements we know from "hagoy asher b'kirbecha" 2) R' Jacobson isn't claiming to know the metzius in this case.


..the commentary on the end of Tanya ch. 2 discusses the fact that Avraham was the son of Terach, and achieved lofty heights because he had a lofty neshama, despite the fact that his "levush" - which the commentaries there say refers to both the intellectual and animal souls - is from his father, a lowly heathen. And Avraham's mother wasn't Jewish either.
You can't bring proof from Avraham because 1) he is before Matan Torah, 2) he himself was a ger! While we inheret a Jewish neshoma, he built his through his own avodah. We can't take from his case for this question.


Conversely, since the child's levush is received from BOTH parents, even someone born from a non-Jewish mother may be more refined than other non-Jews due to the part of his levush that he receives from his Jewish father.
More conjecture from Likutei Yehuda.


I'm asking if, despite his Halachic non-Jewish identity, is their any trace of Jewishness in him.
The point is: Jewish is EITHER OR. No such thing as Jewish residue, a trace of Jewish flavor, aroma du Jew, or avak Yiddishe Neshoma by a gentile. And if it is a case of a Jewish neshoma being trapped in a gentile body, r"l, then still: the neshoma is JEWISH, but the person is not and geirus is required.
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Unread 08-22-2003, 01:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yehuda


Would there really be a significant danger? Can you demonstrate that to me scientifically? And is marrying one's cousin also considered hazardous by the scientists? thanks
So you feel that there is no problem? Are you serious? Even though one can marry a cousin (and there is an inyun to it somewhat) that doesn't change the fact that there is a problem. Go and see for yourself the genetic disorders which happen when first cousins marry! It isn't a good thing to do. If one got a bracha from the Rebbe to do so, or in the case of the Rebbiem themselves -then one knows there is what to go on. But I don't recommend a buchor who wants to get married to say "Bring on the cousins" as his first choice. If you really want scientific proof I'll explain the genetics behind it (to no great extent -but the basics which I do know).


Quote:

Are you saying that their affinity for the intellectual/spiritual is merely a matter of having been raised by a Jewish parent? I'd say that its a part of their intrinsic genetic spiritual makeup.
Perhaps I'm going L'shitasi. I don't feel that intelligance is something entirely genetic -we see smart parents can have dumb kids and vise virsa. (the truth is if one says it is completly genetic it begins to scare me -it moves us way to close into the realm of ungenics) Intellect is something which comes from the way I child is raised. Every one has there own natural gifts, but it's proven that bright colors, shapes, talking to babies, singing to them etc helps increase the childs intellectual skills etc. A child which is raised in a house which puts stress on learning will do better then one who is brought up in a slum. Does this assure intellectually well rounded kids, no -but it does help. Ma shain kain (on the other hand) when it comes to certain things which a yidden natural has -those thigns from our souls which are listed in perek alef tanya (we are humble, kind etc), these things a gentile will not get from his parents.
Quote:

mordechai7215 - please refrain from using derogatory expressions in reference to non-Jews, and delete them, as a non-Jew might view this thread, and we wouldn't want to make a chillul Hashem, ch"v.
Sorry, as you can see I fixed it. I did not mean to offend anyone -I was merrely venting my frustration over intermarrage.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 01:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Wrong for two reasons: 1) my question was reversed: non-Jewish influence on a Jew.
YN - if the quote from R' Jacobson is irrelevant, why did you post it?

The relevance IMHO: just as Avraham's levushim must have come from somewhere, so they came from his father Terach, so too with the levushim of a non-Jew.

Quote:
You can't bring proof from Avraham because 1) he is before Matan Torah
The commentaries on Tanya ch. 1 (quoted in the recent publication of the Rebbe's notes on Tanya) do cite Avraham as an example of someone with a lofty neshama who had low levushim due to his parents. If we couldn't learn from Avraham, they wouldn't cite him as an example of this phenomenon.

Quote:
2) he himself was a ger! While we inheret a Jewish neshoma, he built his through his own avodah.
Why should it matter whether he converted? In fact, that's an even better example! Before he converted, his levushim were received from his non-Jewish parents. Although he changes upon his conversion in that he then gains a Neshama, would you say that his entire personality changes? His animal and intellectual souls bear no resemblance to his former levushim? I wouldn't say so at all. I'd say that on the surface i.e. in terms of the personality that we relate to as human beings, he's pretty much the same kind of person, except now he's Jewish.

Quote:
More conjecture from Likutei Yehuda.
so - where do YOU think a child from a Jewish father only gets his "male levushim"? The fact is that genetically, which includes his intellectual and emotional characteristics, half of his DNA is from his father!

Quote:
The point is: Jewish is EITHER OR. No such thing as Jewish residue, a trace of Jewish flavor, aroma du Jew, or avak Yiddishe Neshoma by a gentile.
Duh. Says who? That's what I'm trying to establish here. Whether a non-Jew born of a Jewish father is any different from any other non-Jew. The posuk from the Torah that you quoted doesn't prove that there is no TRACE, so repeating your position doesn't make it any stronger.

mordechai7215 - yes, I would like to here of scientific documentation re marriage within the family. And why do you say that "there is an inyan in it somewhat?" Do you have a source in Chazal? Do you mean the fact that it is recommended that one marry "bas achoso" - one's sister's daughter? But can that be extended to a cousin?

And do you think that "nishtanu ha'tivim" - Chazal recommended it because then it wasn't a genetic danger, but now it is?
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Unread 08-24-2003, 07:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yehuda
YN - if the quote from R' Jacobson is irrelevant, why did you post it?
Not that it's irrelevant, but that it doesn't resolve this discussion. Nonetheless, since it touches on the matter I thought it would be of interest.


re: Avraham's levushim: again, before matan torah there was the opportunity for "self-advancement" (which only Avraham acheived). And you don't have any basis to say that Avraham's levushim were not affected by his acheivements. Inconclusive.


Quote:
so - where do YOU think a child from a Jewish father only gets his "male levushim"? The fact is that genetically, which includes his intellectual and emotional characteristics, half of his DNA is from his father!
For DNA, ask a geneticist. As for "male levushim", you might find this tape from R' Manis Friedman of interest. In the course of it he mentions (in general terms, of course) what happens when the Jewish "potential" of the Jewish male's seed is given to a non-Jewish woman and the potential for a Jewish child is lost and a non-Jew is produced.

http://www.jewishaudio.org/manis-fri...at-bais-chana/

Quote:
Whether a non-Jew born of a Jewish father is any different from any other non-Jew.
Yishmael...Esav...Zhirinovsky...hmmm

Also note that al pi halacha a gentile does not inherit his Jewish father (Bechoros 47). Can I assume you have enough chassidus to agree that chazal were not only talking about physical property? (this is not a proof, but maybe we're getting somewhere...)
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yehuda
mordechai7215 - yes, I would like to here of scientific documentation re marriage within the family.
It's like this: Each parent gives over a chromosomes to the child.
Lets say in our case we'll deal with Chromsome "A". For say black eyes, and "a" for blue eyes. "A" is a dominant chromosome, meaning it there only need be one of it inorder for a person to have black eyes. "a" however is a resesive gene, meaning that genetic treat will not show itself unless there are two of them.

So in our theoretical case, one parent has black eyes and the other as well. 1 2
a. A ! A
b. A ! A
The above is my attemptg at a pundit square, a visual aid in showing how genes can be mixed. Genes a. are from the father and b. from the mother.
So, the children born can be from any of the following combinations: a1b1, a1b2, a2b2, a2b1. In this case the genes would all be AA, the child would have black eyes. The same would hold true if both parents had blue eyes "aa".
Next there is another man and woman, the man has black eyes AA, the Woman blue aa.
1 2
a. A ! A
b. a ! a
The results are as follows:
a1b1 Aa, a1b2 Aa, a2b2 Aa, a2b1 Aa. Again this child would have black eyes, since two resesive genes are needed inorder to have blue, yet this child does carry a blue eyed gene.
Let's say our two children grow up, go to good yeshivas and semenaries, and at ben shmonie esrie l'chupah (or whatever), Mazel Tov, we have a shidduch.
Their pundat square would look like this
1 2
a. A ! A
b. A ! a
The resulting children from this generation (the third) would have the following make up:
a1b1 AA, a1b2 Aa, a2b2 Aa, a2b1 AA. So though all children have black eyes two of them from this 3rd generation have the blue eye gene as well.
Again the circle of life repeats itslf and two brothers go ahead and marry two girls -A double Mozel Tov! One girl has blue eyes aa, and the other, though she has black has that resesive gene as well, Aa. The two lovely couples could give their children the following possible genetic make ups:
With the first boy who took the girl with the big black eyes would be as follows:
1 2
a. A ! a
b. A ! a
a1b1 AA, a1b2 Aa, a2b1 Aa, a2b2 aa. We see from all of this that only one out of every four theoretical child will have blue eyes.
The boy who married the blue yed girl will have the following:
1 2
a. A ! a
b. a ! a
a1b1 Aa, a1b2 Aa, a2b2 aa, a2b1 aa. Half of the children will have blue eyes, and half will have the potential.

Now lets say one of the first son's kids an Aa marries his cousin (meaning he didn't listen to me), Though he has black eyes, there is a 50% chance he will have a blue gene as well. The girl he married will furthermore for sure have a blue eye gene, even though she had black eyes like her husband. That means that though both parrents have black eyes, and come from mostly black eyed family, their children will have a chance of getting black eyes.
So in our case of cousins, it could be the couple comes from a line of healthy people, but there could be several unkown resesive genes in their DNA with out their knowledge. Due to their extreme genetic closeness, there is an even greater chance of them both possesing a nasty resesive gene or genes that can come out in their children (r"l)!
This is a very simple case, in reality things can be much more complicated -but it works as an example.

Quote:
And why do you say that "there is an inyan in it somewhat?" Do you have a source in Chazal? Do you mean the fact that it is recommended that one marry "bas achoso" - one's sister's daughter? But can that be extended to a cousin?
I forget the exact drusha, but chazal say that one should marry close to the family, how is this done? By marring a relative (it might be bas achoso that you mention)
Quote:
And do you think that "nishtanu ha'tivim" - Chazal recommended it because then it wasn't a genetic danger, but now it is? [/b]
I forsure think that in this day and age there are more people whom can pass on this problem. In the past people who were sick with a genetic disorder could not get the treatment that, b"h, today we have, and therefore could not pass on such genes. Today they do. (I know it smacks at natural selection, but as far as I know, the idea of such things happening after shesis yemi b'rieshis has not been negated -V'ain con makomo (if someone doesn't agree we'll make another thread). As a side note I don't Ch"V think that sick people shouldn't get medical help so as not to pass on genes -such a thing is known as social darwinism and is a sick thing -rather we must just be more carefull in our day and age)
As for in the past, for sure it has existed before, the rulers of most nations were allways sickly and ridden with such things going back to the times of mitriyim (though in such cases we're talking about major inbreeding, al derech what the children of eisav did v'dal)
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Unread 08-24-2003, 01:10 PM   #19
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I looked around a bit and found the following:
Though the risk of defects (r"l) when first cousins marry aren't as bad once thought, there is still a 50% greater chance of negative things happening then that between a normal family.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 07:37 PM   #20
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The following is unconfirmed. It can be corroborated or negated by calling Rabbi Dovid Feinstein etc. Maybe a poster will let us know.

I heard it said that R' Moshe held that if someone has a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother, we should be mekarev them to convert (as opposed to the usual practice of discouraging potential converts).

---------------------------------------------
Haven't seen it inside, but heard from someone who did, that in the letters of the Rebbe Rayatz, he writes about his trip to America and his efforts in bolstering the observance of taharas ha'mishpach, and says:

The first generation won't observe, then the 2nd generation will marry out, and then the 3rd generation - goyim with Jewish fathers, will be among our worst enemies.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:21 PM   #21
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[quote]Originally posted by Jude
[b]The following is unconfirmed. It can be corroborated or negated by calling Rabbi Dovid Feinstein etc. Maybe a poster will let us know.

I heard it said that R' Moshe held that if someone has a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother, we should be mekarev them to convert (as opposed to the usual practice of discouraging potential converts).
\\

I heard somthing similar from someone who was in that category...

Not quite as strong "mekarev", just that the normal laws of discouraging etc. are not the same for one with a Jewish Father.

OI don't know what his "makor" was.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:31 PM   #22
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From Yankel Nosson: "A child born to a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is completely Jewish. Halachically, he has no shaychus to this non-Jew.

A child born to a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father is completely gentile. Halachically, he has no shaychus to his Jewish father, r"l.

There is Jew...there is, l'havdil, gentile. But there is no such thing as a "mixture" in any sense"

1. what is your source for this???

2. Do the laws of kibud av not apply to a non Jewish father!

3. See Rabbi Levin's Sefer on the Seforim in Russia where The Rebbe gives Rabbi Cunin a dollar for Lenin! and tell Cunin "they say that he was a descendant of Jews".. see the book for the full exchange. According to your theories why would this have any significance??

Of course if the mother is not Jewish then the child's religion is not Judaism, and he does not have the soul of a Jew. But who says that the fact a person desended from Jews has "no shaychus". This was just one example that I recently read, I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:40 PM   #23
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I heard from a relative that a well known "dor shishi" Lubavitcher rov held that a child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother should be encouraged to be megayeir, (and said that this was the Rebbe's view). This was a maaseh she'hayah with which I am familiar.
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by marble
1. what is your source for this???

2. Do the laws of kibud av not apply to a non Jewish father!
See the discussion in the thread Are converts obligated to honor their parents? (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...&threadid=2922)
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Unread 08-24-2003, 10:48 PM   #25
marble
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Originally posted by Yankel Nosson

See the discussion in the thread Are converts obligated to honor their parents? (http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...&threadid=2922)
You did not address the rest of my post..
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