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Unread 12-16-2011, 03:48 AM   #1
Kookoo Kabalist
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A snake wrapped around the ankle of Rabbi Chanina Ben Dosa

In drushei Chassidus you'll commonly find mentioned the idea of "nachash koruch al ikvoi shel rabi chanina ben dosa" - "a snake wrapped around the ankle of rabbi channina ben dosa". In the gemrara (brachos 33a) though, it doesn't actually say that there was a snake wrapped around his ankle. Instead, it says that there was an issues in his city, where a certain lizard was causing people problems, so he stuck his heel in its hole, it bit him, and died. In context, what it does say about a snake wrapped around the ankle, is that a person should continue davening even if a snake is wrapped around his ankle. But again - that's not part of a "story" with rabbi chanina ben dosa.

In yerushalmi (brachos 5:1) and in tosefta (brachos 3:20) you'll also find variations of the story, but nothing about a snake wrapping itself around his ankle.

Scores and scores of maamorim are based upon this idea that it wrapped itself around his ankle, and many, many inyonim are built upon this story. So where can I find a source for the idea of a snake wrapping itself around the ankel of rabbi chanina ben dosa? Not looking for other maamorim that say the same thing...
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Unread 12-16-2011, 10:52 AM   #2
Torah613
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For ignorant people like me - can you supply a reference to a maamor or two?
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Unread 12-16-2011, 01:37 PM   #3
couldntbe
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not sure what is wrong with the Tanchuma in Varo or the yirushalmi. which both those mikoros are not the gemora in brachos 33
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Unread 12-16-2011, 03:09 PM   #4
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I'll take a look...
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Unread 12-16-2011, 03:34 PM   #5
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I was looking for something that was in direct support of loshon harav...

Like: snake... wrapped... ankle... chanina ben dosa...

Not: lizard... bitting... ankle... chanina ben dosa...

A brief glance in the gemara would show that you can't make a hashvoah between bitting an being wrapped... the gemara addresses that in regard for tfila... vekm"l.

The tanchuma, the yerushalmi, the bavli, and the tosefta; all are sources for where the Rebbeim got this from, as they are all talking about this general idea. I have sources for that. But still, none of them support the diyukim I'm looking for.

As it seems, the Rebbeim are being medayek to stick to a loshon that was used in early maamorim... The Alter Rebbe first uses this loshoin in Likutei Torah - I don't recall where at the moment...
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Unread 12-17-2011, 07:21 PM   #6
Torah613
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As far as I can tell - the later maamorim don't connect כרוך על עקבו with רחב"ד (based on a search of the database at http://chabadlibrary.org/books/search.aspx). I found this loshon in the MR's maamorim - did not find it (yet) clearly in the AR's maamorim concerning רחב"ד.
A good haoro lichora.
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Unread 12-18-2011, 05:05 PM   #7
The Eighth King
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist View Post
In drushei Chassidus you'll commonly find mentioned the idea of "nachash koruch al ikvoi shel rabi chanina ben dosa" - "a snake wrapped around the ankle of rabbi channina ben dosa". In the gemrara (brachos 33a) though, it doesn't actually say that there was a snake wrapped around his ankle. Instead, it says that there was an issues in his city, where a certain lizard was causing people problems, so he stuck his heel in its hole, it bit him, and died. In context, what it does say about a snake wrapped around the ankle, is that a person should continue davening even if a snake is wrapped around his ankle. But again - that's not part of a "story" with rabbi chanina ben dosa.
Does the מהרש"א in ברכות not help with his questions/answers to that story...? And what is an ערוד anyways...?
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Unread 12-18-2011, 05:27 PM   #8
Kookoo Kabalist
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Thanks.

Hmm...
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Unread 12-18-2011, 06:38 PM   #9
Torah613
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Now I am confused - if the caption answers your question, what was the question to begin with? To me it was poshut, that your question was despite the caption, as the story itself does not mention כרוך על עקבו. And how does the Maharsha help? He brings the Yerushalmi which you did not accept before! מעיקרא מאי קסבר ולבסוף מאי קסבר?
But if you are happy, I am happy...
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Unread 12-18-2011, 06:53 PM   #10
couldntbe
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I don't see how answers your question, all he does is bring the Yerushalmi and ask a question on the Bavlis version of the story....
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