Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Torah

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 12-27-2010, 07:14 PM   #1
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
shir hashirim

Is it a fair statement to say that shir hashirim is an exception to the axiom that "ain hamikroh yotzai midei peshuto"?

If you will say that its most literal understanding is as Rashi explains, what would you call the literal translation? Sub-peshat? Irrelevant?

Is there anything at all to learn from the literal translation of the words?
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-27-2010, 07:26 PM   #2
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvakeshet View Post
Is it a fair statement to say that shir hashirim is an exception to the axiom that "ain hamikroh yotzai midei peshuto"?
Is that statement applied to all of Tanach or just to Chumash?

Quote:
If you will say that its most literal understanding is as Rashi explains, what would you call the literal translation? Sub-peshat? Irrelevant?
Rashi on Novi is not the same as Rashi on Torah. In Novi, he takes much more license to bring midrashim and other explanations, although he still tries as much as possible to give the simplest explanation that makes sense in the context of the larger passage. But can you give an example from Shir HaShirim where the literal translation is not relevant? I know there are a lot of mosholim, but I think most literal translations are still true statements.

Quote:
Is there anything at all to learn from the literal translation of the words?
Of one thing I am sure. If there was nothing to learn from the literal translation, then the words would not have been used.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-27-2010, 07:34 PM   #3
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
I think generally, as far as I know, most of shir hashirim is considered a moshol, or metaphor.

Understanding something by explaining the metaphor can not be called literal.

I know artscroll does not provide translation to shir hashirim, only elucidation according to Rashi, and it reads very differently than the actual words in the text.

I would also seem to think that there is what to learn from the actual words. But the prevalent attitude that I've picked up is that the literal text is excessively sensuous and never to be learned or understood as is.
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-27-2010, 07:38 PM   #4
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
Quote:
Is that statement applied to all of Tanach or just to Chumash?
I always thought it applied equally to all of Tanach. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:
Rashi on Novi is not the same as Rashi on Torah. In Novi, he takes much more license to bring midrashim and other explanations, although he still tries as much as possible to give the simplest explanation that makes sense in the context of the larger passage.
Interesting. Was not aware of that. Thank you.
Quote:
But can you give an example from Shir HaShirim where the literal translation is not relevant? I know there are a lot of mosholim, but I think most literal translations are still true statements.
What do you mean by true? In what sense?
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2010, 08:24 AM   #5
ktonton
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 684
the first question to ask it "how does rashi define pshat?"

I think once you answer that question you'll understand why rashi on shir hashirim doesn't seem like pshat, even though everything else "seems" like it is.

Then define how redak, ibin ezra and ramban define pshat. and you'll see why many other pirushim take an entirely different path to explaining shir hashirim.

and artscrolls refusal to give a litteral translation to shir hashirim has nothing to do with what rashi wrote and everything to do with their own agenda. (sort of like the modern orthodox, charedi, chassidish, chabad, etc agendas except not.)

but here is a hint, rashi does not consider "pshat" and "history" to be synonymous. Actualy i'm not entirely sure that rashi cares about "history" in any sense, as he says "its not a book of stories" (history book)

(which is not to say that rashi is or is not historically correct, but only to say that looking at history through rashi's comentary is to miss its point entirely, and falls under the geder of reading the megilla backwards.)
__________________
I can't figure out which I love more, Sha"ch or Ta"z!
ktonton is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-29-2010, 11:55 PM   #6
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
Wink

Quote:
the first question to ask it "how does rashi define pshat?"
and the answer?
Quote:
I think once you answer that question you'll understand why rashi on shir hashirim doesn't seem like pshat, even though everything else "seems" like it is.
So you mean everything else as in other meforshim on shir hashirim, or rashi on other parts of tanach?
Quote:
Then define how redak, ibin ezra and ramban define pshat. and you'll see why many other pirushim take an entirely different path to explaining shir hashirim.
Do they even purport to bring pshat?
Quote:
and artscrolls refusal to give a litteral translation to shir hashirim has nothing to do with what rashi wrote and everything to do with their own agenda. (sort of like the modern orthodox, charedi, chassidish, chabad, etc agendas except not.)
So what's their attitude?
Quote:
but here is a hint, rashi does not consider "pshat" and "history" to be synonymous. Actualy i'm not entirely sure that rashi cares about "history" in any sense, as he says "its not a book of stories" (history book)

(which is not to say that rashi is or is not historically correct, but only to say that looking at history through rashi's comentary is to miss its point entirely, and falls under the geder of reading the megilla backwards
Huh?
If I wasn't lost before, you totally lost me here.
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 12:10 AM   #7
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvakeshet View Post
Do they even purport to bring pshat?
Of course!
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 12:18 AM   #8
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Of course!
I always thought they were considered drash. Live and learn!
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 09:48 AM   #9
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Ramban, Rashbam and Iben Ezra are considered pshat (except of sourse those parts that the Ramban clearly writes is Drash or "Derech H'Emes"). They consider themselves more pshat than Rashi.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 01:41 PM   #10
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
In fact you will find that a lot of Ramban specifically is a perush on Rashi. And a lot of the perush is on simple pshat.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 01:50 PM   #11
MahTovChelkeinu
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
What do you mean by true? In what sense?
I mean the words on the page make sense, they just seem disjointed if you don't know the back story.
MahTovChelkeinu is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-30-2010, 10:49 PM   #12
mvakeshet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
I mean the words on the page make sense, they just seem disjointed if you don't know the back story.
you mean like the big picture? the theme?
mvakeshet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shir hamaalois tzfas Prayers 2 09-28-2006 11:17 AM
Shir Shel Yom n'eNow770 Prayers 3 02-15-2005 02:16 PM
Reading Shir Hashirim, Ruth And Kohelet rebayzl Seasonal Minhagim 12 05-24-2004 10:23 PM
Shir Hamaalos Chabad Friend Lubavitch Minhagim 1 01-18-2004 08:23 PM
Shir Hakavod FEJ Halachah & Minhagim 6 01-05-2003 02:06 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com