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Unread 06-23-2011, 10:05 AM   #1
Yissachar
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2012: Kabbalah vs Hawking

American Kabbalist in Tzefat advocates a 2011-2014 Geulah from Zohar and Science, & flays British atheist physicist Stephen Hawking to boot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMbzdEexp9w
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Unread 06-23-2011, 01:21 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yissachar View Post
American Kabbalist in Tzefat advocates a 2011-2014 Geulah from Zohar and Science, & flays British atheist physicist Stephen Hawking to boot!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMbzdEexp9w
I thought that was 1540.
Oh wait, it was 1666.
Oh wait, it was 1840.
Oh wait, it was 1846.
Oh wait, it was 1940.
Oh wait, it was May 2011.
Apparently the AR has it at around 2015.
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Unread 06-23-2011, 06:45 PM   #3
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What is "AR"?
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Unread 06-26-2011, 03:30 PM   #4
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One Messianic scenario has the Moshiach coming as a physical man and a human-constructed 3rd Temple, according to the Ramchal.

The other extreme has no human Moshiach, Hashem Himself being the Redeemer, and the 3rd Temple coming down from Heaven ready-made, according to Hillel and Rashi.

This fellow obviously tends to the latter case.

There are all sorts of intermediate scenarios and permutations thereof, depending on the Jews' merits or demerits.
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Unread 06-27-2011, 10:29 AM   #5
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The other extreme has no human Moshiach
So I guess that bracha in Shemoneh Esrai where we ask for David to sprout is just to help us practice our Hebrew reading skills.
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Unread 06-27-2011, 11:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
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One Messianic scenario has the Moshiach coming as a physical man and a human-constructed 3rd Temple, according to the Ramchal.
Why Ramchal? Why not straight Rambam?
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Unread 06-27-2011, 06:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yissachar View Post
The other extreme has no human Moshiach, Hashem Himself being the Redeemer, and the 3rd Temple coming down from Heaven ready-made, according to Hillel and Rashi.

This fellow obviously tends to the latter case.
You cannot quote opinions that were rejected and present them as if they were accepted opinions.

The Talmud decisively rejects this opinion, and rules: "The Redemption will come about through a human being, as specified in the prophecy of Zechariah: "Behold, your king who is coming to you is righteous, and he will save you." The Talmud then says in relation to Hillel, that G-d will forgive him for his statement.

The Chasam Sofer adds that one who holds like Hillel and believes that there will be no redeemer is denying the entire Torah. Since the majority of Rabbis held that there will be a human redeemer, their view is the deciding one according to the rules of the Torah. Thus, continuing to maintain an alternate view is to reject the principle of majority rule laid down by the Torah itself. The final halacha of the Talmud is that a king from the House of David will arise and redeem the Jewish people from exile.

Belief in Moshiach is one of the thirteen principles of faith codified by Rambam: "I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Moshiach. Even if he may tarry, I wait for him every day to come." In other words, we believe that a human being will arise, who will redeem the Jewish people from exile and lead them to the ultimate Redemption. May it happen very soon.

There is no room to believe otherwise. As was pointed out by another poster, our prayers invariably make mention of a human Moshiach from Beis Dovid.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 01:30 PM   #8
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In these instantly playing 3 minute audio links American Kabbalist clarifies re the opinion of Hillel that "There is no Moshiach for Yisrael, for they already had him in the days of Chizkiyah"

http://www.zshare.net/audio/91996655dad34d71/
http://www.zshare.net/audio/9199646229ee3a2a/

Last edited by Yissachar; 06-28-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 03:02 PM   #9
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That he was rebucked in the Talmud for his opinion is a sufficient proof that he was wrong.

Any thing else is apologetics.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 03:04 PM   #10
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In these instantly playing 3 minute audio links American Kabbalist clarifies re the opinion of Hillel
I wonder what's the name of that "great" Kabbalist...
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Unread 06-28-2011, 04:11 PM   #11
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American Kabbalist responded:

"Sanhedrin 99a דברים אשר לא כן (Rashi) things that are not honestly,or sincere...ie hidden agenda as deviating from pushut pshat that is easily understood, rather taking up an opinion that is hard to understand due to the sod aspect that the masses don't bother to delve into the subject matter in order to understand the torah on a deeper level due to circumstance. look to the midrash 2000 years tohu torah moshiach...last i heard, there wasn't 2000 years of moshiach unless you consider you know who to be. which we don't, implying there must be a deeper message...when dealing with thr biggest secrets of mankind, ie moshiach why wouldn't that call for ultimate sodot...thus its not honest and derech eretz to allow for the masses to err due to inclination of the unlearned mind.

thus the rebuke, notice the words "wrong" were not said. this is not even a matter of halacha. this is dayot of geulah.

on 98b, we say moshiach and david and moshe - is that a machlokes too? the answer is moshiach incorporates moshe and david. this line of thinking, is a clear expression of how there trulyis no such thing as machlokes in the torah, if we strive tounderstand even the most difficult passages in the talmud. and to say that the passages are not difficult, is an insult to the infinitewisdom of God. the difference is bekius and iyun. bekius, we think we know, iyun reveals the fractal of torah to try to really know what Hashem really has to say, and on that level the torah becomes a kli for dayot of emes and understood within a different context one based on emes, one not grasped by the am haaretz, which is why there is a difference between madregos in scholarship and devotion.

daas torah is not a popularity contest, rather a challenge to grasp the mind so to speak of the divine, and to find shalom within the text, no matter how much the adversary, the Soton wants to proclaim and perpetuate the sheker of machlokes."


Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
That he was rebucked in the Talmud for his opinion is a sufficient proof that he was wrong.

Any thing else is apologetics.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 04:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Yissachar View Post
American Kabbalist responded:

sanhedrin 99a דברים אשר לא כן (Rashi) things that are not honestly,or sincere...iehidden agenda as deviating from pushut pshat that is easilyunderstood, rather taking up an opinion that is hard to understand dueto the sod aspect that the masses dont bother to delve into thesubject matter in order to understand the torah on a deeper level due to circumstance. look to the midrash 2000 years tohu torahmoshiach...last i heard, there wasnt 2000 years of moshiach unless youconsider you know who to be. which we dont, implying there must be adeeper message...when dealing with thr biggest secrets of mankind, iemoshiach why wouldnt that call for ultimate sodot...thus its nothonest and derech eretz to allow for the masses to err due toinclination of the unlearned mind. thus the rebuke, notice thewords,"wrong"were not said. this is not even a matter of halacha. thisis dayot of geulah. on 98b, we say moshiach and david and moshe, isthat a machlokes too? the answer is moshiach incorporates moshe anddavid. this line of thinking, is a clear expression of how there trulyis no such thing as machlokes in the torah, if we strive tounderstand even the most difficult passages in the talmud. and to saythat the passages are not difficult, is an insult to the infinitewisdom of God. the difference is bekius and iyun. bekius, we think weknow, iyun reveals the fractal of torah to try to really know whatHashem really has to say, and on that level the torah becomes a klifor dayot of emes and understood within a different context one basedon emes, one not grasped by the am ha aretz, which is why there is adifference between madregos in scholarship and devotion. daas torah isnot a popularity contest, rather a challenge to grasp the mind so tospeak of the divine, and to find shalom within the text, no matter howmuch the adversary, the Soton wants to proclaim and perpetuate the sheker of machlokes.
Reading this reminds me of reading the broken run-on Rabbenu Chananels on the side of the daf, except in this case it is probably a waste of time.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 04:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yissachar View Post
American Kabbalist responded:

[i]"Sanhedrin 99a דברים אשר לא כן (Rashi) things that are not honestly,or sincere...ie hidden agenda as deviating from pushut pshat that is easily understood, rather taking up an opinion that is hard to understand dueto the sod aspect that the masses don't bother to delve into the subject matter in order to understand the torah on a deeper level due to circumstance. look to the midrash 2000 years tohu torah moshiach...last i heard, there wasnt 2000 years of moshiach unless you consider you know who to be. which we dont, implying there must be a deeper message...when dealing with thr biggest secrets of mankind, ie moshiach why wouldnt that call for ultimate sodot...thus its nothonest and derech eretz to allow for the masses to err due to inclination of the unlearned mind. thus the rebuke, notice the words,"wrong" were not said. this is not even a matter of halacha. thisis dayot of geulah.
כן does mean, at times, sincere, but here there is no doubt that כן means correct. See Shmuel 2:20:20
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Unread 06-28-2011, 04:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
That he was rebucked in the Talmud for his opinion is a sufficient proof that he was wrong.

Any thing else is apologetics.
To be fair, we do mention in davening (seemingly) that Yerushalayim will be rebuilt in a "wall of fire." Whatever that means. However, that has nothing to do with no Moshiach coming.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 05:17 PM   #15
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According to Maharsha Sanhedrin 99a, both Hillel's & R.Yosef's deyos are valid.
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Unread 06-28-2011, 05:51 PM   #16
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We are still lacking the name of the Kabbalist who wasted his time writing all the above...
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Unread 06-28-2011, 05:57 PM   #17
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BTW, I remember that you also opened a thread about the Geulah in...2011.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=11722

Have you changed your mind since then?
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Unread 06-28-2011, 06:59 PM   #18
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According to Maharsha Sanhedrin 99a, both Hillel's & R.Yosef's deyos are valid.
First of all, it's R. Hillel. Second of all, what does that have to do with the gross mistranslation of Rashi? Third of all, reread the Maharsha.
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Unread 06-29-2011, 02:37 PM   #19
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American Kabbalist responded:
wednesday said about לא כן בשמואל: if you look there, it wasn't a rebuttal,
but rather a clarification on his words, thus rav yosef said, that r
hillel "did a לא כן" ie. that he would explain his position perforce,
rather than retract w/o clarification...very strong pshat, that לא כן
is a concept, being not wrong and refuted, but stated and followed
with clarification thus being valid in its origin.
nafka mina, as per chasam sofer, did rav hillel deny the entire torah
with his statement? he was a kofer mamash??


"probably a waste of time" - probably? no dan b'chaf zchus? on what grounds?
BTW, I remember that you also opened a thread about the Geulah in...2011.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=11722

Have you changed your mind since then? why would I change my mind?
Third of all, reread the Maharsha....did this person even understand
the maharsha assuming he read it?
wednesday: For the record, I don't like the translation on
truekabbalah.com. It seems like he translates words...I know what
words mean, I want explanation and elaboration. For example, (not that
he does this, but it seems he does similar things) translating מ"ן as
"Female Waters" is unhelpful.

I have the same problem with a lot of translations and shiurim.

moshe5769: overuse of the word "apologetics"!

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Unread 06-29-2011, 03:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yissachar View Post
American Kabbalist responded:
wednesday said about לא כן בשמואל: if you look there, it wasn't a rebuttal,
but rather a clarification on his words, thus rav yosef said, that r
hillel "did a לא כן" ie. that he would explain his position perforce,
rather than retract w/o clarification...very strong pshat, that לא כן
is a concept, being not wrong and refuted, but stated and followed
with clarification thus being valid in its origin.
nafka mina, as per chasam sofer, did rav hillel deny the entire torah
with his statement? he was a kofer mamash??


"probably a waste of time" - probably? no dan b'chaf zchus? on what grounds?
BTW, I remember that you also opened a thread about the Geulah in...2011.

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=11722

Have you changed your mind since then? why would I change my mind?
Third of all, reread the Maharsha....did this person even understand
the maharsha assuming he read it?
wednesday: For the record, I don't like the translation on
truekabbalah.com. It seems like he translates words...I know what
words mean, I want explanation and elaboration. For example, (not that
he does this, but it seems he does similar things) translating מ"ן as
"Female Waters" is unhelpful.

I have the same problem with a lot of translations and shiurim.

moshe5769: overuse of the word "apologetics"!


Seemingly these posts are being forwarded to the American Kabbalist for response, and this poster is kind enough to share the responses with us. If that is the case, then the American Kabbalist does not read these posts directly. If that is the case, why/how did a comment I made in another thread about an entirely different topic that is not even relevant in passing somehow get snagged in the response? Does the American Kabbalist lurk? If so, let him get an account (it's free and easy!) and enlighten us directly.

(I don't understand the actual content of the post due to the poor quality of expression and so I cannot even begin to respond to it.)
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