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Unread 06-28-2010, 07:44 AM   #1
ktonton
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does moshiach have to be a father?

I stumbled upon this quote from rambam a few days ago:

(pirush hamishna, hakdama l'perek kol yisroel [tenth chapter of tractate sanhedrin])

... ... ...

(on daf kuf chof daled, amud alef, 15th line in the classic vilna print, or in perek daled of the mosad harav kook edition.)

(translation mine)

"and moshiach will die and his son will rule after him, [as well as] his grandson... and his kingdom [dynasty?] will be exceedingly long..."

does this mean that moshiach has to be a father? does it mean that he specificaly has to have a son who follows in his father's ways?
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Unread 06-28-2010, 08:09 AM   #2
Torah613
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Is that a halachik statement or a sipur dvorim?
I think the bigger, more important diyuk from there is that Moshiach will die.
.
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Unread 06-28-2010, 08:18 AM   #3
ktonton
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Quote:
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Is that a halachik statement or a sipur dvorim?
I think the bigger, more important diyuk from there is that Moshiach will die.
.
But obviously the rambam is talking about his dying after he has been halachicaly anointed as king by a prophet, no? (can a prophet anoint himself king?)
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Unread 06-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #4
MahTovChelkeinu
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Reminds me of the gemarra's discussion about the kohen godol needing two wives on Yom Kippor. Because he needs to attone for his family, we have to make sure he's married, and therefore he takes a back-up wife.

But I have no idea if the analogy is accurate.
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Unread 06-28-2010, 02:31 PM   #5
Torah613
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I don't get the attempted analogy. In any case:
We don't pasken that we have a backup. Also, I think it is more of a - even if he has children he has to have a wife because of the posuk .
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Unread 06-28-2010, 06:37 PM   #6
noahidelaws
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What the Rebbe said about other things can be applied here as well. Obviously what Rambam says here is not me'akeiv l'halocho, or Rambam would have included it in Hilchos Melochim in Mishneh Torah, the sefer of "halochos, halochos."
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Unread 06-28-2010, 09:37 PM   #7
MahTovChelkeinu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
I don't get the attempted analogy. In any case:
We don't pasken that we have a backup. Also, I think it is more of a - even if he has children he has to have a wife because of the posuk .
Well the gemarra's logic regarding the Kohen Godol is that because we have a posuk describing that he atone for his "household" (meaning wife), we need to make sure that that condition is met (i.e. that he have a wife). My point was that if the Kohen Godol happened to be single (or widowed as the case may be) it was not considered acceptable to simply say that the given posuk did not apply. There must be a wife.

Likewise here, Ktonton's question follows the same logic. However the Rambam reached his conclusion is not so relevant to the point. The Rambam says Moshiach's son will reign after him and his son's son, etc. If Moshiach happens to not have a son can we say that this halachah is simply not applicable or do we find a way to make it happen.

How to make it happen is another question, having a son is a harder trick than getting married. And the gemarrah does not imply that the Kohen Godol would lose his job - more that the Yom Kippor service would not be proper. What that means in the Moshiach case is a different question. So, as I said, I'm not sure if the analogy carries through.
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Unread 06-28-2010, 09:42 PM   #8
Torah613
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
What the Rebbe said about other things can be applied here as well. Obviously what Rambam says here is not me'akeiv l'halocho, or Rambam would have included it in Hilchos Melochim in Mishneh Torah, the sefer of "halochos, halochos."
What exactly is the halocho here that is not me'akiv? ?
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Unread 06-28-2010, 09:43 PM   #9
Torah613
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Like I said in my original post, I do not see the issue to begin with, as it is just a sipur dvorim.
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Unread 06-29-2010, 01:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
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What exactly is the halocho here that is not me'akiv? ?
Moshiach dying and having children.
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Unread 06-29-2010, 07:49 AM   #11
Torah613
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So you think that in that Rambam (forget about hil. Mlochim for a moment), he is saying a "halocho" that he has to have children?! A king cannot be childless?
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Unread 06-29-2010, 03:50 PM   #12
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I apologise for not being clear. I agree with you that since the statement about children and dying is not written in a signon of psak, it is not binding. My point is that even if it were, lhalocho we would pasken like Rambam's words on the matter in Hilchos Melochim.
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Unread 06-29-2010, 09:58 PM   #13
Torah613
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And my point is that there is nothing to be binding or not binding in the first place, and the dying is a sippur dvorim that is a metzius.
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Unread 06-29-2010, 11:02 PM   #14
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Can you elaborate more on why you think that a signon of sipur dvorim has no halachic significance at all?
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Unread 06-30-2010, 08:39 AM   #15
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Can you elaborate more on why you think that a signon of sipur dvorim has no halachic significance at all?
I don't have time to look it up now, but we might be able to learn out a requirement to be a parent from other halachot in the shulchan aruch. (is the nosi required to be a father?)

There are many posts in judaism for which it is strongly encouraged to be a parent.

And you cant compare this situation to a king who became king on the strength of yerusha.

in one case we're talking about a king who is king because is father was king (can he help if he doesn't have kids?)

and in the other we are talking about anointing a king who's reign will be for one generation only, the question is, can we do that? if its clear that he likely, baring a miracle, cannot have children?

The two are not comparible.

Rambam says that he will have a dynasty, that means that he has to have children.

and Noah: you can't neatly seperate out sifrei "halacha" and other sefarim in the rambam's day. you could just as easily claim that the yad was never intended to be a book of "halacha" because it doesn't follow the seder of the gemorah was was customary then.

back then, and t613 can correct me, there was no such (clear) distinction just as there was no such distinction in the gemorah. (there are sections of the gemorah which are argued if they are aggadic or halachic).

For crying out loud rashi on the gemorah is a halacha sefer (not that we treat it as one today.) and ramban on chumash is also quoted in places leinyan halacha, i've seen his comment on al tischalel es bitecha brought in halachic discussions.

Last edited by Yitzy; 06-30-2010 at 09:58 AM. Reason: please avoid real names
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Unread 06-30-2010, 09:56 AM   #16
Torah613
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I don't have time to look it up now, but we might be able to learn out a requirement to be a parent from other halachot in the shulchan aruch. (is the nosi required to be a father?)
For example?
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There are many posts in judaism for which it is strongly encouraged to be a parent.
A chazzan? Senhadrin? What else? Why does this follow to a king? It either says by melech (like by the other places), in which case we don't need diyukim or it doesnt, in which case there is no such requirement. And to be medayik from the peirush hamishnayos one may as well be medayek from Mlochim 1:7, which in my opinion is also not correct.
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And you cant compare this situation to a king who became king on the strength of yerusha.

in one case we're talking about a king who is king because is father was king (can he help if he doesn't have kids?)
If there is such a requirement, than this lack makes him unfit to serve.
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and in the other we are talking about anointing a king who's reign will be for one generation only, the question is, can we do that? if its clear that he likely, baring a miracle, cannot have children?
Again, you have to show such a limitation.
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The two are not comparible.
You are making a whole SA now - of halochos that say nowhere.
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Rambam says that he will have a dynasty, that means that he has to have children.
Or a relative (or some other yoresh) will carry on - if hil yerusha apllies to a king.
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Unread 06-30-2010, 01:00 PM   #17
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At the risk of sounding silly...

... what about the very real possibility that someone without children can be Moshiach and then have children afterwards? After all, wouldn't that be the standard model if a king (Yoash, for example) inherits the throne at a very young age. We don't say "you can't have the throne because you don't have children yet."

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Unread 07-14-2010, 07:36 AM   #18
mosheh5769
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hanovi speaks profusely about the Nosi (Chapters 40 to 48). By a careful reading of those 8 chapters, we can almost with certainty assume that the Nosi he is speaking about is Moshiach. On chapter 46, Psukim 16-18, he says:

**- , - -- , :* , **- , -- - , ; , --, **- , --, -:* - ,

Apparently, these Psukim seem to indicate that Moshiach will have at least sons and that they may inherit from him. But is it mandatory or optional, this is not really clear. And as has been said by T613, it's also possible that we're talking about a relative (or some other yoresh).
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Unread 07-14-2010, 06:26 PM   #19
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Ah but chassidus geht mit RambaN
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Unread 07-15-2010, 06:40 AM   #20
mosheh5769
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Ah but chassidus geht mit RambaN
And what did RambaN say?
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Unread 07-15-2010, 02:44 PM   #21
ktonton
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And what did RambaN say?
Near as I can remember, according to ramban the rebbe doesn't even come close to qualifying as even chezkas moshiach. . .

To quote a friend of mine ". . . according to ramban, moshiach is a 'whole different animal'"
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Unread 07-15-2010, 03:04 PM   #22
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Near as I can remember, according to ramban the rebbe doesn't even come close to qualifying as even chezkas moshiach. . .

To quote a friend of mine ". . . according to ramban, moshiach is a 'whole different animal'"
Now, I understand what Gevurah meant by "chassidus geht mit RambaN"
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Unread 07-15-2010, 03:14 PM   #23
Torah613
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Forgive my ignorance, but what Ramban is that, and where does Chassidus "go" with that Ramban?
I assumed that Gevurah was referring to the machlokes Ramban and Rambam about reward of neshomos le'osid lovo, and the role of Tchiyas hamesim, where chassidus "paskens" like the Ramban.
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Unread 07-15-2010, 07:32 PM   #24
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Forgive my ignorance, but what Ramban is that, and where does Chassidus "go" with that Ramban?
I assumed that Gevurah was referring to the machlokes Ramban and Rambam about reward of neshomos le'osid lovo, and the role of Tchiyas hamesim, where chassidus "paskens" like the Ramban.
Ktonton was humorous.
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Unread 07-16-2010, 04:01 PM   #25
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T613 u assume correct but no one is following.....
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