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Unread 08-10-2008, 10:23 AM   #1
bloomingflowers
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Unhappy Real belief in Mashiach???

I've been reading the teenage threads for a while now and i have really enjoyed them. I decided to reactivate my account, which i made a few years ago and never really used, so that i can ask my own question.
This year I was a counsellor in an overnight camp for not frum kids, where the apsect of moshiach and his coming was literally drummed into their heads over the summer. the whole focus of the camp was that the kids should leave with a strong understanding of moshiach, a strong belief in his coming and a deep yearning for him. I must say, it really worked.
However, as a counsellor instilling the same things into my kids, i felt very hypocritical. I dont think I really believe in Moshiach- to me it sounds like one big fairytale. I would teach my kids and feel silly inside.
Then, to top it all off, on the last motzei shabbos of camp, i happened to be in the shul. we had just had havdalla there and most counsellors had gone to the bunks to prepare for night activity. The head staff had remained in the shul and I was there for some reason too.
I was shocked at what was giong on. The shabbos that had just ended, being the last one of camp, had been solely devoted to Moshiach. Each camper had recieved a keychain with the brochos we recite when moshiach comes so that they will be ready right away witht he right thing to say.
The head staff, largely mae up of older, unmarried girls, were discussing whether its okay for them to say the brochos as group to make moshiach come, being that we were a minyan of girls, since i had just come in. I stood there standing very bemused as they argued if it was right or not. Finally they decided against it and instead chose to dance around in a circle and shout ad mosai with al their hearts. Of course, i had to join in- nooone gave me the choice- i completed the minyan! The ten of us could really bring moshiach!
so they began to dance and sing 'am yisroel have no fear' and 'ad mosai' and some of them were crying- they were all really into it. And I? I felt so STUPID! They really thought we ten girls would bring moshiach? Did they really really think they would stop danicng and there was a 1 percent chance even that moshiach would come?????? I dont know- personally, I am very confused. I WANT to have this belief- but I dont see this belief as being real. If it was real, I envy them- and I wander- HOW do they believe? what did they learn or do or hear that made them believe this way? Am I the inly faker??????
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:20 AM   #2
Torah613
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I am more intrigued by this
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Originally Posted by bloomingflowers View Post
The head staff, largely mae up of older, unmarried girls, were discussing whether its okay for them to say the brochos as group to make moshiach come, being that we were a minyan of girls, since i had just come in. I stood there standing very bemused as they argued if it was right or not.
What was this supposed to mean?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:40 AM   #3
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What do you need clarification on? The reason why they were arguing if it was right or not? They werent sure if it would be like forcing MOshiach to come if they would say the brochos- like in the story of the boy who wanted an apple so made the brocho so his father HAD to give it to him...
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:59 AM   #4
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I hear. How sad.
What part of Moshiach bothers you? The actual belief that Moshiach will come someday (hopefully soon), or some of the things they were pushing in camp?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 12:02 PM   #5
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it bothers me that they had such a strong belief (seemingly) and I dont- they really beleived that the ten of us could bring moshiach- and I didnt
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Unread 08-10-2008, 12:33 PM   #6
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First of all, which 'Berochos' are you referring to?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 12:41 PM   #7
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um... i dont know if everyone knows them- i only found out about them then!- there are five brochos about moshiach... including 'hagoel es amo yisroel' and 'shehechiyanu'...
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Unread 08-10-2008, 12:44 PM   #8
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um... i dont know if everyone knows them- i only found out about them then!- there are five brochos about moshiach... including 'hagoel es amo yisroel' and 'shehechiyanu'...
Aren't those supposed to be said after he comes?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 12:53 PM   #9
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right- they are- which is why they were arguing whether or not it was right to say it now- like I said, its like the story of the child who tricked his father into giving him the apple he wanted by making a brocha so that his father HAD to give it to him. get it?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 01:00 PM   #10
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right- they are- which is why they were arguing whether or not it was right to say it now- like I said, its like the story of the child who tricked his father into giving him the apple he wanted by making a brocha so that his father HAD to give it to him. get it?
That is all very nice, but there is a HALACHA that one may not recite G-ds name in vain, Halachikly they were not permited to do so, regardless of their intentions. This is IMHO an example of what the Rebbe brings in his Hayom Yom about a "chasidishe yezter harah."

As a side note, as the Rebbe has said, if there would be people who truly meant 'ad mosai' he would have come long ago...
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Unread 08-10-2008, 02:14 PM   #11
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I know and I agree with you- but remember, they DIDNT say the brochos in the end- they opted instead to ask 'ad mosai' as a minyan... and about your side point... it could be precisely because I completed the minyan and I didnt have the real belief...?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 02:46 PM   #12
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I'm glad to hear that they did not say it in the end (tg for the small things). Call me a skeptic but while I have no idea why Moshiach has not come yet (nor does anyone else) I do not think that you being the 'tenth one' has anything to do with it.

I understand how you feel, and I don't think you are a (or the "only") "faker." The fact that you started this thread shows that you are sincere. But I think part of the issue is what exactly does "actual belief that Moshiach will come" mean? I don't think >>ducks<<< if you do not sincerely believe that with you next shout of ad mosai Moshiach will come you are considered a heretic. You may not be on "such a high level," but I don't think that is what the 12th ikkar means.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 02:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bloomingflowers View Post
it bothers me that they had such a strong belief (seemingly) and I dont- they really beleived that the ten of us could bring moshiach- and I didnt
If were you I would not worry too much about it. I would suggest working on strengthening your general belief in Moshiach, and believing that Hashem can bring him at any time, and await and yearn and hope for Hashem to send him (the sooner the better obviously), and not let the antics of some girls get to you and make you feel inferior that you are somehow not up to "their level". [I assume that is also what Lion was getting at].
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Unread 08-10-2008, 02:57 PM   #14
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But I think part of the issue is what exactly does "actual belief that Moshiach will come" mean? I don't think >>ducks<<< if you do not sincerely believe that with you next shout of ad mosai Moshiach will come you are considered a heretic. You may not be on "such a high level," but I don't think that is what the 12th ikkar means.
okay so first of all, i didnt get that >>duck<<< bit, unless that means it was edited-im new to the site...
secondly, does that mean all those girls were faking it too??? does that mean noone in the world actually believes moshiach will come because the fact is- hes not here yet- so noone has said ad mosai with a full heart of emuna!
and also, how DO people get on such a high level? what makes them believe so much in moshiach?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 03:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by bloomingflowers View Post
okay so first of all, i didnt get that >>duck<<< bit, unless that means it was edited-im new to the site...
secondly, does that mean all those girls were faking it too??? does that mean noone in the world actually believes moshiach will come because the fact is- hes not here yet- so noone has said ad mosai with a full heart of emuna!
and also, how DO people get on such a high level? what makes them believe so much in moshiach?
No, I put in the "ducking" part. I meant it in a sarcastic way since many might disagree with that...

I hesitate to say they were faking, I think on there own level they may have meant it (I have no way of knowing). But I was citing the Rebbe's words about ad mosai (not that I myself actually claim to fully understand them). The question as to why Moshiach has not come yet, is a very good question. This question has bothered us Jews for thousands of years. No one has an answer. The Rebbe also said (even with saying what he said about 'ad mosai') that he does not know and cannot understand why Moshiach has not come yet.

In short, I think you should heed torah613 advice [which yes, is what I was getting at, but in a round about way]. I would add that perhaps it might be beifical to understand what exactly you are supposed to believe. there seems to be two different views here. you can start by rereading torah613 last post...
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Unread 08-10-2008, 04:13 PM   #16
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Bloomingflowers, why is it so hard to believe that HaShem could bring forth an extraordinary person to accomplish certain tasks? Do you believe that Moshe existed? If so, then why would you not believe that it could happen again?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 04:58 PM   #17
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ok, a few things- DWDUKE, I believe in Moshe and everything that he did- I didnt say I dont believe the inyun of a great leader who has the abilities to take us out of golus. What i dont believe is the era of moshiach. I dont know why I dont- the idea of everything being perfect and us wanting ot do only good... the whole thing sounds like a fairytale, an imaginative place, something that only happens in books etc...
and Lion- about what the rebbe said, how even he cant understand why moshiach isnt here yet- that was my exact point!!! how do pple still believe and hope and pray? what is the source of their belief???
and Torah613- maybe u have ne ideas to help me believe and strengthen it...?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:11 PM   #18
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ok, a few things- DWDUKE, I believe in Moshe and everything that he did- I didnt say I dont believe the inyun of a great leader who has the abilities to take us out of golus. What i dont believe is the era of moshiach. I dont know why I dont- the idea of everything being perfect and us wanting ot do only good... the whole thing sounds like a fairytale, an imaginative place, something that only happens in books etc...

On Thursday morning go outside and ask for a divine touch then look to your right. Don't move until you feel "the presence." Ask the meaning of this message http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php If you haven't embraced Moshiach yet, don't worry, you will in a little while.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:12 PM   #19
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ok, a few things- DWDUKE, I believe in Moshe and everything that he did- I didnt say I dont believe the inyun of a great leader who has the abilities to take us out of golus. What i dont believe is the era of moshiach. I dont know why I dont- the idea of everything being perfect and us wanting ot do only good... the whole thing sounds like a fairytale, an imaginative place, something that only happens in books etc...

On Thursday morning go outside and ask for a divine touch then look to your right. Don't move until you feel "the presence." Ask the meaning of this message: (You will have to cut and paste the link into your browser because it isn't linking, but perhaps that is part of your challenge.)

http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php

If then you haven't embraced Moshiach, don't worry, you will in a little while.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:22 PM   #20
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I know and I agree with you- but remember, they DIDNT say the brochos in the end- they opted instead to ask 'ad mosai' as a minyan... and about your side point... it could be precisely because I completed the minyan and I didnt have the real belief...?
BS"D

One thing is for sure, there is no need for you to feel guilty. A friend, who is a big Meshichist, and I, neutral but very much against the "Chabad Inc." mentality, were discussing where we would be when Moshiach comes. He was sure he would be in 770, thousands of kms away, and that Moshiach would come Tishrei. I said I would be in (the name of a local 24 hour supermarket) at night after a long day's work, waiting on the checkout line, bored out of my skull and distracted only by my cellphone ringing to tell me Moshiach was here.

I was just in that supermarket to stock the fridge after 9 Av. Unfortunately the cellphone didn't ring. And I didn't go there after the fast of 9 Av davka because of what I said. It's just the closest store to where I was davening and eating. I can't even say that I even thought about the phone ringing - I was dragging myself through the tedious tasks of sorting through bins of manhandled, overpriced vegetables and aisles of what often seems like schlock at best and the D-word at worst, checking kashrus, avoiding outright rotten produce, and finding the lowest prices on the really boring stuff like paper goods and water (you can't drink tap water where I live ) followed by rushing to the shortest checkout line, as usual.

I used the supermarket as a metaphor of being in the middle of an unstimulating everyday task.

In other words, when Moshiach comes, we may well be totally unprepared, not getting together to say Ad Mosai, not in 770 for Tishrei, but in the uninspiring middle of our least inspiring day to day chores.

And if anything, Hashem appreciates your Ad Mosai said with earnest doubt as much or more as that of the confident ones who may just be masking even deeper doubt.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
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On Thursday morning go outside and ask for a divine touch then look to your right. Don't move until you feel "the presence." Ask the meaning of this message: (You will have to cut and paste the link into your browser because it isn't linking, but perhaps that is part of your challenge.)

http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php

If then you haven't embraced Moshiach, don't worry, you will in a little while.
i need practical advice... not jokes
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:40 PM   #22
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http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php[/quote]
????????? what on earth?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:44 PM   #23
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and Torah613- maybe u have ne ideas to help me believe and strengthen it...?
Without knowing where you are holding spiritually, I cannot answer.
My first advice, would be not to obsses about it.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:45 PM   #24
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and not let the antics of some girls get to you and make you feel inferior that you are somehow not up to "their level".
There's no need to attribute such negative motives to the other girls. What happened according to the OP's report was very simple: they were really excited, and she felt left out because she wasn't.

My comment to the OP: The Rebbe clearly wants us to be really excited and enthusiastic about the emunah in Moshiach. If you were around others with this koch for a certain amount of time, then consider yourself very lucky. If you don't feel that you're at that point yet, then follow the prescription that the Rebbe said: increase in limmud inyonei ge'ulah u'moshiach, and bring this awareness to permeate all aspects of avodah and inspire you to increase in them, and the more you do, the more real it will become for you.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:48 PM   #25
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i need practical advice... not jokes
It isn't a joke unless you aren't serious. If you aren't serious then you shouldn't ask for serious advice.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...9-a231d4cb37ee
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