Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Halachah & Minhagim > Lubavitch Minhagim

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 11-08-2004, 07:11 AM   #1
mendyt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 110
"Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

Can anybody tell me what (if any) is our minhag for reading the word in Parshas Vayeira Perek Chof Alef Possuk Vov (9th Word).

The shul I was in couldn't agree one way or another.
Maybe someone knows how it was read by the Rebbes minyan?
mendyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-08-2004, 11:28 PM   #2
LION
Diamond Member
 
LION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,122
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

In the Torah Temimah chumash [Which is the one they usually go by, and the Rebbe used for dikduk if I am not mistaken] there is a Shvah under the Tzadik...
__________________
"The Lion's roar"
LION is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 10:04 AM   #3
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

I am pretty sure R' Shusterman read it with a (chataf) patach (on RH etc).
The TT has a chatof patach...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 10:21 AM   #4
LION
Diamond Member
 
LION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,122
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

I am sorry, Torah613 is correct, I looked at the wrong posuk...
__________________
"The Lion's roar"
LION is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 08:51 PM   #5
shoyn
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,121
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

"and the Rebbe used for dikduk if I am not mistaken"

IIRC R Ginsburg in hiskashrus disagrees with this

Last edited by shoyn; 11-09-2004 at 09:55 PM.
shoyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 10:07 PM   #6
LION
Diamond Member
 
LION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,122
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

What does he say and why ?

(I know that some people do not like the Torah Temima for different reasons [his views etc.] but I would like something more than that...) What does he say and why ?

(I know that some people [especially in the chassidishe velt] do not like the Torah Temima for different reasons [his views etc.] but I would like something more than that...)
__________________
"The Lion's roar"
LION is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 10:43 PM   #7
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

Why would you think - on what basis - that the Rebbe used it for dikduk? He may have used it since it was a nice clear Chumash, some say because the stops for the aliyos are the same that are customary by us, but why the dikduk?
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 10:54 PM   #8
shoyn
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,121
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

hiskashrus #514

) בתחילת הקלטות קריאת-התורה של מי שהיה הבעל-קורא בבית חיינו, הרה"ח ר' מרדכי שוסטערמאן ע"ה, הוא מודיע לשומעים, שמכיוון שהרבי השתמש בחומש זה, על-כן יהיו ההפסקים בין העליות לפי אותו חומש.

יש הסבורים ששימושו של הרבי בחומש 'תורה תמימה' היה מפני שהרבי רצה להביט בדרשות רז"ל שעל המקראות. אחר-כך היתה שיחה (ש"פ משפטים, מבה"ח וער"ח אד"ר תשמ"ט - ספר-השיחות תשמ"ט ח"א עמ' 252 (בקשר לפרשיות בניין המשכן)) שבה הרבי תבע שילמדו את התורה שבעל-פה השייכת לפסוקי התורה שבכתב, ונקט לדוגמא שאפשר ללמוד זאת מהליקוט שבחומשי 'תורה-תמימה' ("כמו: 'תורה תמימה', 'תורה שלימה' וכיוצא-בהם" (זאת למרות שידוע אי-הדיוק בפירוש 'תורה תמימה' בהעתקת מרז"ל ובכלל, ראה 'תורה שלימה', מילואים לכרך כו עמ' רפה ואילך, ובפרט בעמ' ש-שא. וראה מה שנכתב בקשר לספר 'מקור ברוך' לבעל התו"ת, בקובץ 'יגדיל תורה' נ.י. גיליון יב עמ' מג ובקובץ 'פעמי יעקב' גיליון מה, אב תש"ס, עמ' סא)). לפיכך נקל לומר שהרבי קיים בעצמו מה שתבע מאנ"ש. לפי זה, אין להביא מכך ראיה למידת הדיוק שבחומש עצמו. ועיין 'התקשרות' גיליון תסט ע' 18. וראה 'התקשרות' גיליון תע עמ' 16 על חומש נוסף שהשתמשו בו לבדיקת קריאת-התורה בבית חיינו. וע"ע.
shoyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2004, 11:15 PM   #9
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

I believe that watching the Rebbe during kriah it didn't seem he was looking at the TT (not even the Chazal part), therefore the theory in hiskashrus is just that - a theory with no basis IMO.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 02:53 AM   #10
shoyn
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,121
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

what do you mean no basis, its a befeirush hishkashrus!
shoyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 05:11 AM   #11
mendyt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 110
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

On Chabad of beverly hills' website you can hear Rabbi shusterman reading it with a (Chataf) Patach. Attached is the audio in .ram format (real player). (I have it in .mp3 on my home computer, but I am not home, sorry for those who dont have real player)

http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/to...-hashana-1.htm

http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/to.../18Vayeira.htm
Attached Files
File Type: zip torah-rosh-hashana-1.zip (218 Bytes, 306 views)
File Type: zip vayera.zip (183 Bytes, 274 views)
mendyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 03:03 PM   #12
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyn
what do you mean no basis, its a befeirush hishkashrus!
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 10:55 PM   #13
LION
Diamond Member
 
LION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,122
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

The reason that r' motel shusterman used the Torah Temima was not only because of the aliyos but also because of the dikduk which is more miduyak there than most chumashim [I verified this with one of his grandsons...(which also added that this is not to say there are no mistakes in the TT chumash) ]

I have heard that this was also the reason that the Rebbe used it...[which makes more sense in my mind (which btw does not mean much) than the other reasons given].
__________________
"The Lion's roar"
LION is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 11:20 PM   #14
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

According to the quote in Hiskashrus, R' S used the chumash for the aliyos, not the dikduk.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2004, 11:31 PM   #15
LION
Diamond Member
 
LION's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,122
Re: "Yitzchak" or "Yitzachak" (shvah or patach)?

That is why I verified it with his grandson... Btw it does not say "and not for dikduk" it does not refer to it at all.
__________________
"The Lion's roar"
LION is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-09-2005, 11:03 AM   #16
ChilinInCali
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 437
The word is yitzachak with a patach, not a shva. the reason that on some chumashim it is writte with a shva is based on a machloikes of the ba'ale hadikduk how to read a chataf patach.

A chataf patach is considered as a shva na, and follow the kelolim of a shva na. Therefore some medakdekim (see Minchas shai beginning of parshas lech lecha) hold that there is no such thing as a chataf patach and all chataf patach's have to be pronounced as a shva na without any patach sound. other medakdekim disagree.

Rabbi Shusterman a"h would always pronounce the patach. [btw, this is not just by yitzachak but happens many times throughout the Torah.]
ChilinInCali is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-21-2010, 01:27 PM   #17
rebbeg
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by mendyt View Post
Can anybody tell me what (if any) is our minhag for reading the word in Parshas Vayeira Perek Chof Alef Possuk Vov (9th Word).

The shul I was in couldn't agree one way or another.
Maybe someone knows how it was read by the Rebbes minyan?
I just listened to a live recording on this pasuk form Rabbi Shusterman and he reads it WITHOUT THE CHATAF PATACH as Yitzchak and NOT Yitzachak.

Here the audio here: http://www.beverlyhillschabad.com/to.../18Vayeira.htm

Go to 21:38 and hear for yourself.
rebbeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com