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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:10 PM   #76
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
I think they are personal opinions, which are based on whether one is sourced in chesed or din.

re Eilu V'eilu - see thread on it
Go to the Eilu V'eilu thread to see my response as to why these are not personal opinions.
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Unread 08-19-2003, 03:02 PM   #77
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sad to see that this thread has been diverted

back to the topic:

http://www.nishmat.net/article.php/id/7
excellent essay

From http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...lish/36/14.htm

Regarding the seven teachings of the Baal Shem Tov mentioned above, there are a number of details which need elaboration. In the written version of these seven teachings, the word chasser ("missing") is written in several places. Since everything in the world -- and certainly something regarding Torah -- is guided by Divine Providence, this certainly contains a message for us all.
This is especially true since in other cases we find that even where it would be appropriate, the word chasser is not written. One of the Alter Rebbe's well-known students, R. Aaron Strasheler, wrote that the second part of Tanya, Shaar HaYichud V'HaEmunah, was never finished by the Alter Rebbe. In the first printed editions of Tanya, it was indeed printed at the end, "chasser." This note was removed in later printings, however, and was certainly done upon the guidance of the Rebbeim. Perhaps the explanation is that after all the explanations and elaborations of the Rebbeim, there is in reality nothing "missing" -- the subject is covered completely in other writings of Chassidus. If so, what could be the purpose here, in the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, of leaving the word chasser?
This can be understood in light of the verse (Proverbs 9:9), "Give to a wise person and he will become more wise." This means that there are certain things that a person must be taught directly, and others which he must realize on his own, only after personal effort and exertion. After giving him a certain amount of knowledge ("Give to a wise person"), he will be able to expand upon this knowledge and develop new concepts on his own ("and he will become more wise"). This is the desire aroused within a person when he sees the word chasser. He immediately wonders what was missing, and he uses the principles of Torah and his previous knowledge to try to formulate a possible completion of the missing section.
Another interesting aspect of this story is that the first two teachings were delivered publicly before the Baal Shem Tov's students, his students' students, the chassidim, and even women. From this description, it is obvious that women were not present for the latter five. The obvious explanation for this is that the teachings were aimed at different types of souls. Women have souls from alma d'nukva, whereas mens' souls come from alma d'd'chura. The last five teachings were meant specifically for souls from alma d'd'chura, and therefore only men were present. The first two fit both types of souls, and therefore women were also there.
Today, this presents somewhat of a paradoxical situation. Women are halachically obligated in the mitzvos of love of G-d, fear of G-d, belief in G-d, etc. They are therefore obligated to learn Chassidus, which leads to the performance of these mitzvos. But the last five teachings are, as mentioned above, only for souls from alma d'd'chura! How could women learn them?
We can understand this by first relating an incident in which Torah meant for alma d'nukva came also to alma d'd'chura. The book Beis Rebbe tells of Freida, the daughter of the Alter Rebbe. She was especially dear to him, and he would frequently deliver Chassidic discourses specifically for her. In fact, when her brother, who later became the Mitteler Rebbe, wanted to hear Chassidus, he would sometimes ask her to make a request, whereupon he would hide and listen. Obviously the Mitteler Rebbe wasn't fooling the Alter Rebbe, and didn't intend to do so. If so, why did he have to receive this Chassidus in such a way? The answer lies in the concept mentioned previously. These discourses were intended specifically for alma d'nukva, and therefore had to be delivered to a female.

But we are left with the same question in the opposite direction: how could the Mitteler Rebbe learn this Torah if it was meant for alma d'nukva?

The explanation is that because of his unquenchable desire to learn this Torah, and his constant striving for it, he attained in his soul the ability to internalize Torah from alma d'nukva.

The same applies in our case regarding the last five of the seven discourses given by the Baal Shem Tov. They were really meant for souls of alma d'd'chura -- but when a women feels a desire to learn this Torah as well, she creates within her soul the capability of connecting with this type of Torah.

The lesson to be derived from this is clear. There might be certain things which are in reality beyond the reach of your soul. However, through constant striving and persistent, you can nevertheless attain them.
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Unread 01-20-2004, 04:20 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil

Let's not refuse to acknowledge that our Rebbe's statement was a chiddush, and that anything that preceded it has "no source in halacha"!
I've looked back over the thread but don't understand what you mean. Could you explain what the chidush is, and what is meant by "and that anything that preceded it has "no source in halacha"!"
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Unread 06-17-2005, 11:54 AM   #79
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are girls forbidden to learn gemara?

a girl asked me what is wrong with learning gemara ?(for girls and ladies). we argued for a long time and we didnt get anywhere because i didnt have a answer for her
does anyone know what i should answer her?
any suggestions?!?!?!
thankx a million!!!!

Last edited by ask16; 06-17-2005 at 11:58 AM.
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Unread 06-18-2005, 10:56 PM   #80
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nothing is wrong
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Unread 06-19-2005, 05:46 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gevurah
nothing is wrong

You're saying Talmud study for women is OK?

As far as I know it comes down to this: women may learn anything that is:
1) useful knowledge for them;
2) will increase their yiras shamayim.
Something like that. Traditionally, this has included all of the Torah shebichtav but not Torah she ba'al peh, though Mishnah study by women is pretty common. Some movements (especially the modern-orthodox) are promoting the teaching of Gemara to women also.

I think it's just a minhag that women don't study Gemara. As a matter of fact I don't think there are any real objections to women studying Gemara that I know of (I once again reiterate that I am definitely not a rabbi!). It's a minhag. Todays women are far more learned than they often used to be during earlier times. It's only a matter of time until women will be fully equal to men in study. Whether that's a positive or negative thing, I won't say. But it will happen, sooner or later.
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Unread 06-19-2005, 06:46 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel

You're saying Talmud study for women is OK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
As a matter of fact I don't think there are any real objections to women studying Gemara that I know of.
Is there a multiple personality thing going on here?
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Unread 06-19-2005, 03:47 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jude
A Chasid by the name of Rabbi Yosef Solomon from Eretz Yisrael describes how strongly he felt about chinuch al taharas ha'kodesh for girls. He said, "I resolved that at least my own daughters would receive that kind of education ... The older they got the more serious were the subjects I taught them. We started with Tanya, Ha'Yom Yom and the Rambam's Sefer Ha'Mitzvos, and progessed to Torah Ohr.

"Boruch Hashem by the time they reached bas mitzva we had completed the entire Torah Ohr! We also covered an amazing amount of Rambam, as they studied a full perek each day over several years. Again, before bas mitzva, they had successfully completed the entire cycle of Rambam.

"In Iyar of 5754 I informed the Rebbe of their progess and R' Groner told me that he read my letter aloud. I am sure the Rebbe derived much nachas.

"To borrow a phrase, all I can say is that froyen zaynen nit aderesh (women are not different)."
I know the story. That's how I want to teach my daughters also.

(No, I don't have kids and I'm not even married. It's just about the future. If I wouldn't say this you'd all be thinking I'm 35 or so...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LavDavka
Is there a multiple personality thing going on here?


Yes. Because somehow I never knew that women in Lubavitch commonly study Gemara. I thought this was only done in Modern-Orthodox circles. But in Lubavitch? Surprises me.

Personally, then, I don't think there is any objection against women studying Gemara. I was merely surprised to read that others agree with this and that it is in fact common practice in Lubavitch.

I hope that explains my multiple personality.
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Unread 02-19-2006, 08:21 AM   #84
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Another case of dark and light getting confused

There is no prohibition for women to learn Talmud. However, there is no obligation to do so. It as simple as that.
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Unread 02-20-2006, 08:04 PM   #85
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Um, it's not "as simple as that", or else there wouldn't be major differences of opinion about what women can and can't and should and shouldn't learn.
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Unread 02-21-2006, 05:27 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chabadnika
Um, it's not "as simple as that", or else there wouldn't be major differences of opinion about what women can and can't and should and shouldn't learn.
The only reason why there is 'major difference of opinion' is because of misunderstand who they are using as an reference.

There is no HALACHIC issue if a woman wants to learn Gemara, and does so. There might be issues for certain women, but in normal cases, these problems are not related to gender.

There is a few stories in Stories of Eliyahu HaNavi about how women were able to outsmart men in Gemara.

The Jerusalem Talmud made it very clear to who it was referring to that shouldn't learn Torah. I see no way how this can be directed to all women.
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Unread 02-21-2006, 02:36 PM   #87
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There's a misunderstanding of who they are using as a reference? What? No there's not...

The Babylonian Talmud talks about the prohibition for a man to teach his daughter Torah, and the Rambam in Mishneh Torah discusses the prohibition as well.
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Unread 02-21-2006, 09:39 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chabadnika
The Babylonian Talmud talks about the prohibition for a man to teach his daughter Torah, and the Rambam in Mishneh Torah discusses the prohibition as well.
Are we talking about women learning Gemara, or women getting tought Gemara? As you pointed out, there is a major difference, which all goes back to misunderstands of what is being used as reference.

Last edited by ems; 02-22-2006 at 10:24 AM.
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Unread 12-28-2009, 10:26 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by HoravDave View Post
In Satmer they only educate the girls with general yiras shomaim....and look at the results
What do you mean? The results are positive or negative?
Don't they learn Chumosh, Dinim, Nach?
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Unread 12-29-2009, 05:04 PM   #90
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The late Lubavitcher Rebbe and the present day Belzer Rebbe spoke about this subject when they met in the 80's.

(At the time the Lubavitcher Rebbe asked him to take of his coat etc..)

The Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion was, not only is there no problem but that there is a responsibility for them to learn Talmud.
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Unread 12-29-2009, 10:22 PM   #91
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The Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion was, not only is there no problem but that there is a responsibility for them to learn Talmud.
You forgot the most important: to quote your source.
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Unread 12-29-2009, 10:29 PM   #92
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IMHO, of course a woman can learn gemoro and you have very sharp ones as well. However, I don't think is their primary responsibility. By the same token, you can have men that do very well when it comes to typically femenine home chores but that doesn't mean that those are their primary responsibilities.

G-d created each one with their own chushim. I haven't met so many women that spend hours learning gemoro.
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Unread 12-29-2009, 11:06 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
You forgot the most important: to quote your source.
Get a hold of the tape and listen to it.
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Unread 12-29-2009, 11:41 PM   #94
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There is a woman here in Brussels who give once every month a two hours lecture at university on Talmudic issues. Most of the attendants are women. Do you know why? Because she use her talmudic skills to bash Rabbonim and Poskim. Once, she explained to the audience how rabbonim were stupid guys because of their interpretation of pru u'rvu (she bashed Rashi's comment) and many subjects related to women. So Torah for women maybe ok, but in the hands of feminists it becomes apikornius
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Unread 12-29-2009, 11:45 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Avrami87 View Post
Get a hold of the tape and listen to it.
Did you ever mentioned any tape in your post?
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Unread 12-30-2009, 03:12 AM   #96
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There is a woman here in Brussels who give once every month a two hours lecture at university on Talmudic issues. Most of the attendants are women. Do you know why? Because she use her talmudic skills to bash Rabbonim and Poskim. Once, she explained to the audience how rabbonim were stupid guys because of their interpretation of pru u'rvu (she bashed Rashi's comment) and many subjects related to women. So Torah for women maybe ok, but in the hands of feminists it becomes apikornius

"One swallow doesn't make a summer".
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Unread 12-30-2009, 08:11 AM   #97
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"One swallow doesn't make a summer".
I never said that this woman represented the majority of women who study Gemarah. This was an example to illustrate the fact that studying Gemarah was not for all women, especially when they decided to study by their own to show how the Rabbis are wrong all the way and that Judaism of the rabbis (as she calls it) always despised women, etc..
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Unread 08-25-2010, 03:10 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by HoravDave View Post
In Satmer they only educate the girls with general yiras shomaim....and look at the results
B'h
Women have to learn after all they were given brains too.
If its not filled with pninmius like men then it's filled with shtus.

A Lubavitch girl who learns gemorrah says chitas etc does not have time nor desire to dwell/talk/learn in other areas I can assure you ...............
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