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Unread 01-06-2003, 10:31 AM   #126
Yankel Nosson
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I spent five years in University, majored in English, and today I work in the Internet field. The way I earn a living has absolutely no connection with what I studied.

In retropspect: In addition to all the other benefits, I would probably have a sharper mind if I had spent five years in Yeshiva rather than University.

The Eybershter will take care of your parnosa, don't worry. If it's tough going, so take advantage of the permission to test Hashem about his promise that those who tithe will become wealthy (http://www.torah.org/advanced/busine.../vol3no11.html).
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Unread 01-07-2003, 12:12 AM   #127
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so you spent five years in a makom tumah??? (yes, apparent sarcasm not withstanding)... and what did you do afterwards? did you go and spend five years learning in yeshivah? to make up for the five years wasted? or did you spend ten years to make up for the five years in school and the five years in yeshiva to make up to your family for all the time spent apart from them???

i think that college is more of a center of misplaced ideals than of bad... didn't the rebbe or the freidika rebbe say that everything can be used for good? yes i know about the not eating pork so it is used for good by not using it...
but can't we apply this same principle to tv, movies, music, etc...?
it seems to me that if you go for good you will get good, if you go for bad, you will get bad.....
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Unread 01-07-2003, 01:50 AM   #128
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The notion that one has to have a degree in order to make a living is simply not true. I have friends who were in Yeshiva with me, but who didn't go on Shlichus but went into business. Different businesses. Electronics, clothes and others. For all those one does not need a college education. Take the other Chasidim for example, who unlike the Litvishe, many of them go into business after Kolel, but they usualy don't even entertain the idea of going to college. In Lubavitch, the Rebbe spoke and wrote so much about this, and still some think that this notion (in order to make a living you need a degree) is reality, while it is proven not to be true.
On the other hand, the Rebbe spoke about a not frum/goishe college. Now that there are a few frum colleges, if someone goes there to learn a certain profession, there is nothing wrong al pi Torah to learn secular studies to make a parnoso. If someone after his Chasuna (or even before, if he is just not made for Yeshiva) goes to such a frum place, he shouldn't be made to feel like an outcast chas vesholom. I think this attitude is part of the problem of some Anash becoming very modernized, because they are made to feel that unless they go on Shlichus they have no place in Lubavitch (like by the litvishe those who don't stay in Colel their entire life). They have to know that even if they go to such a college, they still should learn Chitas and Rambam, say Tehilim on Shabos Mevorchim, grow a FULL beard, should behave in a Chasidishe manner etc. etc.
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Unread 01-07-2003, 02:11 AM   #129
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I heard from someone (don't remember who, so unauthenticated, but a good point regardless) that a Frum college is in some ways worse than a secular college: because in a secular college you KNOW you are in a place which may oppose Torah, so you're on guard. That can be a good defense mechanism against the forces and pressures of college life.

On the other hand, a Frum college makes you feel more relaxed about everything: It's Kosher, it's Jewish, it's religious- I don't need to worry about "influences." But in a Frum college it is often co-ed; the "Chevre" may not be the best peer pressure group you'd get together; the teachers are not necessarily teaching from a Frum perspective.

Of course this does not mean that it is "bad" to go to a Frum college, but at the same time, I wouldn't call it Glatt Kosher either.
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Unread 01-07-2003, 12:07 PM   #130
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Dr. brings up a good point: If you learn a skill/profession and start off in business; and you work EXTREMELY HARD, you can make as much or more $$ than many with college degrees.

Clearly......no one should go to college just to make more money.
I know shoe store owners who make much more than Ph.D.'s
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Unread 01-07-2003, 12:23 PM   #131
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ok... so point made that college is not needed... but what about going into the work force? isn't that the same enviroment that one has been trying to avoid by not going to college? we could go on and on debating these points... but like i said before and i will reiterate it again... you get what you put in... if you go looking to loose or loosen ones yiddishkeit then that will happen, so too if one goes to strengthen they will be strengthened....
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Unread 01-07-2003, 11:37 PM   #132
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It is true the work force is a simillar environment. Yet, those in the workforce, most of them are grounded, unlike the average college student.

In addition, the Rebbe said: if one is not learning torah they should get married. Marriage keeps the individual grounded. Certainly, a frum Jew who is married will not become affected by the workforce.
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Unread 01-08-2003, 12:21 PM   #133
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unfortunalty i do not know about that... i have heard many stories of people who are in the work force and married and they are r"l having affairs....
i still think that it depends on the strengths of the individual...what and who that person is determines their goals and actions in life
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Unread 01-08-2003, 01:28 PM   #134
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You are correct that the individual and his strengths are important; and you are right that many of the same temptations exist in the working world.

It is tough. I heard a D'var Torah by Rav Shimshon Pincus z'l about tznius. In the middle, he made a statement that in his opinion, the creation of the female secretary is one of the major dangers that has evolved in the last few decades. He asks, what happens when a man spends 8-10 hours a day with a woman that is not his wife?

Something to think about.
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Unread 01-08-2003, 01:54 PM   #135
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Nu go see the other threads and this 9 to 5 book which lists all the aveiros committed. Anyone in a mixed office even frum
has this problem and in a goyish environment all the more so where flirting is the norm.... I know someone who works in a factory and during Clintons' etc. he sadly told me that only 2 coworkers in 50 saw a problem besides him and one was a Prot. Fundamentalist!
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Unread 01-08-2003, 02:17 PM   #136
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Not everyone is cut out for business. It take a business kop to succeed there. Some people have different talents.

And, who says that secretaries have to be women?
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Unread 01-08-2003, 03:23 PM   #137
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Quote:
isn't that the same enviroment that one has been trying to avoid by not going to college?
Not at all. There are no borders a la Manis at all in College.
There are rules etc at work...

Quote:
He asks, what happens when a man spends 8-10 hours a day with a woman that is not his wife?
Go online at Chabadtalk.com instead
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Unread 01-08-2003, 04:28 PM   #138
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i still think that living in this world in and of itself is a difficult task... but we still need to understand that we are the ones responsible and in charge of ourselves... not many people think this way... and in college it is no diffrent than in the work place... more and more we are seeing that one income alone is not enough to provide for a family and both parents are going to work so that the family can stay alive.... one thing that i have found is that we don't need to do this, one can go into other money making things, such as real estate, to provide for a family... but even so... college is still looked at as the end all for society... and for this we need to keep the responsibility on ourselves... we cannot blame everything around us for what we do... we need to admit that we see and want and disregard what the torah says, with out college and with out all of that... we and we alone are responsible for ourselves
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Unread 01-22-2003, 01:20 AM   #139
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BS"D About College, the Rebbe points out the prayer we all recite in the morning berachos: "Do not bring us... to be tested." The Rebbe comments that if we pray not to be brought by Hashem into such a situation, we should certainly not enter into it ourselves!
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Unread 02-03-2003, 12:14 AM   #140
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ok- i understand that one shouln't put him/herself into a place of "sakana" (any kind- spiritual and physical. in this matter we are talking spiritual).
but, sometimes college is needed. and even if it isn't needed, but the decision is to go, instead of looking down on the person, i think we should help the person. after a day of college we should make sure we give em a dose of torah. y'know what i mean? like counterbalance all the shmootz. cuz if that person is gonna live through the all the shmootz, it's better we stand behind him/her as opposed to rebuking him/her.

btw- i'm sorry if i repeated anyrhign that was said before- my computer is a little broken so i wasn't able to read all the pages and everything. :rolleyes:
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Unread 02-03-2003, 12:21 AM   #141
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BS"D Well, naturally, the more objectionable attendance of college is, the more people who actually attend need urgent spiritual support!
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Unread 02-03-2003, 10:58 AM   #142
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I know shoe store owners who make much more than Ph.D.'s
For the record, I found out that the shoe store owner actually has a B.A. and M.S. in history from YU.....he became a BT while there (taka decades and decades ago) and the Rebbe said to finish...
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Unread 03-16-2003, 01:05 AM   #143
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Unfortunately, to make money in this world, college is needed. How are we supposed to make a parnasah without furthering out education? I defenitely agree that dorming in college is NOT the answer, but what about living at home and attending only some classes? or something like stern? A shliach can make money on the side to support his/her family.
right?
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Unread 03-16-2003, 12:37 PM   #144
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your post makes it clear that you haven't read this thread from the beginning and that you are unfamiliar with what the Rebbe had to say about college and parnasa
do yourself (and us) a favor and read the thread, kay?
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Unread 04-01-2003, 01:48 PM   #145
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From searching around the Internet using the Google search engine i have discovered that the majority of non-jewish sources
hold that college/university education brings a higher level of income over the lifetime of the person than one who merely
has 12 years of secular education. This is called a premium amount. College/University Education graduates also have a lower percentage of unemployment than non college/university
graduates. An example of this follows

Higher Educational Attainment Levels lead to Lower Poverty Rates Recent data provided by the U.S. Census Bureau show that the percentage of persons living below the poverty threshold decreases significantly as educational attainment levels go up. Based on 1999 census data,* More than 30 percent of persons with less than a seventh grade education live below the poverty threshold, compared to 10.1 percent of high school graduates and 3.2 percent of college graduates. Therefore, a person with a college degree or more is three times less likely to live in poverty than a high school graduate and almost ten times less likely than a person who has less than a seventh grade education.* Poverty rates decrease considerably (i.e. more than 8 percentage points) twice during a person's educational career, once after a person reaches the seventh grade and again after he or she obtains a high school diploma.Population Age 25 and Over Living Below Poverty Threshold (1999)Source: United States Census Bureau as found in Postsecondary Education Opportunity, Tom Mortenson, 1999.05101520253035 Grade 6 or Less Grades 7-11 Grade 12 - No DiplomaHigh School Graduate Some College -</


http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5707.html
Ohio State University Extension Fact Sheet
Family and Consumer Sciences
1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, Ohio 43210-1295

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poverty Fact Sheet Series - Poverty, Education, and Job Opportunities
HYG-5707-98
Introduction

This fact sheet is one of a series of twelve fact sheets on poverty. Each fact sheet in the series addresses a different aspect of poverty and has a different title related to poverty. The information on each fact sheet stands alone. Also, the fact sheets can be used in combination with each other. Varying combinations of the fact sheets will provide a broader scope of information to different discussions on the complex issues of poverty.

The fact sheets were developed to address a need for information on people in poverty, a growing segment of the nation's population. Quantitative and qualitative information have been included in the information on poverty in the United States. Poverty facts related specifically to Ohio have been given when the information has been available. Also, the statistics in the tables are the most current data available from national census sources and have been provided by Ohio State University Extension Section of Communications and Technology.

Professionals and paraprofessionals who work with programs for people in poverty make up the intended audience for the fact sheets. Professionals and paraprofessionals may work with poverty populations and programs that have different titles such as Limited Resource Audiences, Ohio Works First, Expanded Food and Nutrition Education Program, Family Nutrition Program and other titles. But, the fact sheets will be helpful as background information for people who develop policy, design educational programs, and deliver agency services to a variety of groups in poverty.

Information contained in the fact sheets was taken from a review of the literature. A reference list of sources that have been cited and a bibliography have been given at the end of each fact sheet. Any conclusions or implications found in the information come from the text of literature and not from the author of the fact sheets.

Recommendations

It is recommended that professionals and paraprofessionals use the fact sheets with planning committees when outreach efforts with poverty populations are being developed. The fact sheets will focus committee members on specific poverty issues rather than the broad and complex nature of poverty. Also, the specific poverty issues can serve as a guide to look for and collaborate with organizations working on similar efforts. Further, the planning committee can expand the fact sheet information to include local data for their reference.

The fact sheets are camera ready and duplication is encouraged. The fact sheets can also be accessed at Website http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~lra. For additional assistance contact Dr. Juanita E. Miller, State Extension Specialist, Ohio State University Extension, 381 Campbell Hall, 1787 Neil Avenue, Columbus, Ohio 43210-1295, (614) 688-3846.


Juanita E. Miller, Ph.D.
State Extension Specialist
Limited Resource Audiences

Poverty, Education, and Job Opportunities
High poverty rates have been linked to low levels of educational attainment. Low levels of formal education have been linked to employment in low wage earning jobs. Low wages have been linked to subsistence living. As can be seen, the links create a cycle from poverty to poverty.

Literacy is a major issue related to poverty. Literacy may be defined as the ability to read, write, speak in English, and compute and solve problems at levels where one can function on the job and in society (National Center for Education Statistics, 1993). In the job market literacy has been equated with the level of formal education a person has completed. Some of the educational levels are high school graduate with a diploma or its equivalent, the General Educational Development (G.E.D.), post high school education, and college graduate. Not having a high school diploma or the G.E.D. or some post high school education has been associated with the poverty status of people. Although having a high school, post high school, and even college education does not guarantee getting a high paying job, educational attainment is one of the most significant things an individual can do to keep from being poor.

When poverty rates are related to levels of educational attainment, one is made aware of some interesting information. Most obvious is the fact that the poverty rates of high school dropouts is three times higher than the poverty rate among high school graduates. Less obvious is the fact that the poverty rates for men and women at different levels of educational attainment show a gap that narrows as people go up the educational ladder. In 1994 the poverty rate for men 25 to 54 years of age who did not finish high school was 27% and 38% for women of similar age who never finished high school. The poverty gap narrows when men and women of the same age have both finished high school. The poverty gap is very small between men and women of similar age who are college graduates. The results show that the higher the level of educational attainment, the differences between the incomes of men and women (O'Hare, 1996) and between races (Darby, 1996) are significantly decreased.

To claim that there are no exceptions to the rule would be inaccurate. Contrary to the usual relationship between low levels of education and employment status is the fact that many adults with low levels of education are successful in employment and in their lifestyle. Although a poor education represents an underdeveloped resource, there are those adults with low educational levels who manage to develop their human capital. They are not the norm but they manage to find ways to apply their human resources often by migrating to places that offer more and varied opportunities.

Today's technological society and the work environment will make commanding good paying jobs more difficult. Technical jobs will require technical knowledge and skills that are usually acquired at the post high school level and above. So, the level and kind of educational attainment will have an even stronger relationship to income and standard of living in the future.

Related Issues
Individuals, families and communities have differing values placed on formal education and different attitudes about attending school. Although they may know that one needs a good education to get a good job, there is a tendency of poor people to decline educational opportunities (Epstein, 1996) and individuals who excel in school work may be scorned (Shaw, 1996).

Many young people lack the confidence that they can achieve in school and so they underinvest themselves in educational endeavors. Families, communities and schools need to promote activities that give children a sense of opportunity and a better outlook for their future.

Summary
There is a direct relationship between educational attainment, job opportunities and poverty. Although some people with low levels of education have been able to break the cycle and live successful productive lives, this scenario is not typical. Today's job market relies heavily on the technical skills and knowledge gained from a post high school education and above. Relatedly, higher levels of education narrow the income gap across gender and racial lines.

References
Darby, Michael R. (1996). Reducing Poverty in America. London: Sage Publications.

Epstein, William M. (1997). Welfare in America. Madison, WI: The University of Wisconsin Press.

National Center for Education Statistics. (1993). Adult Literacy in America. Washington, DC: Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education.

O'Hare, William P. (1996). A New Look at Poverty in America. Population Bulletin, Vol. 51, No. 2.

Shaw, Wendy. (1996). The Geography of United States Poverty. New York: Garland Publishing, Inc.

Bibliography
Annie E. Casey Foundation. (1996). Kids Count Data Book. Baltimore MD: Annie E. Casey Foundation.

Blau, Joel. (1992). The Visible Poor. New York: Oxford University Press.

Council for Economic Opportunities in Greater Cleveland. (1996). 1995 Ohio Poverty Indicators, Volume 10. Cleveland, OH: Council for Economic Opportunities in Greater Cleveland.

Council for Economic Opportunities in Greater Cleveland. (1996) & U.S. Census Bureau. (1990 Census and 1991-1996 Estimates). Poverty in Ohio. Cleveland, OH: CEOGC & Washington, DC: U.S. Census Bureau.

Danziger, Sheldon & Gottschalk, Peter. (1995). America Unequal. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Darby, Michael R. (1996). Reducing Poverty in America. London: Sage Publications.

Department of Health and Human Services. (1998). 1998 HHS Poverty Guidelines. Federal Register, Vol. 63, No. 36, February 24, 1998. pp. 9235-9238.

Ellwood, David T. (1988). Poor Support. U.S.A.: Basic Books Inc., Harper Collins Publishers.

Epstein, William M. (1997). Welfare in America. Madison, WI: The University of Wisconsin Press.

Handler, Joel F. & Hasenfeld, Yeheskel. (1997). We the Poor People. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press.

Hartmen, Chester. (1997). Double Exposure Poverty and Race in America. Armonk, NY: M. E. Sharpe.

Leidenfrost, Nancy B. (1993). Poverty, An Overview and Background Paper. Washington, DC: Extension Service, USDA.

Limited Resource Audiences Committee. (1991). Reaching Limited Resource Audiences. Washington, DC: Extension Service, USDA.

National Center for Education Statistics. (1993). Adult Literacy in America. Washington, DC: Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education.

National Research Council. (1995). Measuring Poverty. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.

O'Hare, William P. (1996). A New Look at Poverty in America. Population Bulletin, Vol. 51, No. 2.

Roleff, Tamara L. (1996). The Homeless. San Diego, CA: Greenhaven Press, Inc.

Ropers, Richard H. (1991). Persistent Poverty. New York: Insight Books.

Shaw, Wendy. (1996). The Geography of United States Poverty. New York: Garland Publishing, Inc.

Sidel, Ruth. (1996). Keeping Women and Children Last. New York: Penguin Books.

Stoneburner, Chris & Real, Mark. (1997). Child Care. Columbus, OH: Children's Defense Fund-Ohio.

U.S. Bureau of the Census. (1997). Median Family Income, 1996. Current Population Survey March, 1996.

U.S. Bureau of the Census. (1997). Official Poverty Thresholds in 1996, by Family Size and Type. Current Population Survey, March, 1996.

U.S. Bureau of the Census. (1997). Poverty statistics on population groups. Current Population Survey, March, 1996.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fact sheets on poverty have been reviewed by the following members of the OSU Extension Limited Resource Audience Committee: Vicki Braddy, Ann Clutter, June Ewing, Margie Griffith, Meri Lynn Klingensmith, Greg Siek, Penne Smith, Deanna Tribe, Calvin Walker, Karen Williams, and Marilyn Sachs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All educational programs conducted by Ohio State University Extension are available to clientele on a nondiscriminatory basis without regard to race, color, creed, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, gender, age, disability or Vietnam-era veteran status.

Keith L. Smith, Associate Vice President for Ag. Adm. and Director, OSU Extension.

TDD No. 800-589-8292 (Ohio only) or 614-292-1868


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Unread 04-01-2003, 02:24 PM   #146
Gevurah
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not valid data for the frum community.....which does not profile the same....
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Unread 04-01-2003, 02:30 PM   #147
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Please let us know what the profile of the frum community is. . . . . you are making a very broad statement with very little basis.
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Unread 04-01-2003, 02:42 PM   #148
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I wonder whether income as it relates to education is a correlation rather than a cause and effect. In other words, perhaps there are other qualities that college grads have which enable them to earn higher incomes, and it's not the degree per se that earns them the higher income. These qualities might include ambition and the expectation of living on a certain standard.
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Unread 04-01-2003, 03:01 PM   #149
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I meant heimische more than Modern O......where doctors and lawyers etc.....

There are plenty of chassidishe businessman with no advanced education who are rich and whose income is

There are plenty below the poverty line as well


Chabad numbers would be bimodal....FFBs and BTs
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Unread 04-07-2003, 06:12 PM   #150
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So what data should we use Gevurah?

In the Non-Jewish world there are plenty of people who got "lucky" and made it big and have never completed a college degree. For example, Bill Gates and Paul Allen (leading software people who dropped out of college, Kobe Bryant (b-ball player who went to the NBA from high school), etc. However, we draw inferences from broad statistical information. All such information correlates college education to higher long term income. Perhaps there are other reasons (Jude posts some great reasons above) but the general rule remains despite the success stories.

In addition, perhaps you have noticed that there is a poverty problem in the frum community. Just notice that in all the major communities (chassidish and litvish) that welfare and food stamps are sometimes the rule rather than the exception, especially for young couples.

Maybe you can run a study proving your conclusions, because the evidence seems otherwise.
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