Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Chinuch

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 19 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Unread 01-02-2003, 01:50 PM   #101
yehonasan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally posted by icewolf770
yes but what about someone who is older who wants to go back to college? does the same rules applly?
I think that this would require an honest assessment of the person by himself and his mashpia. College is a very dangerous place for a Yid.
__________________
Achdus Yisroel!
yehonasan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 02:06 PM   #102
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
what do you mean? i have heard this said over and over again... but i don't understand the reason for it... if someone is true to themselves then they cannot leave what they are behind....
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 02:20 PM   #103
yehonasan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 231
College campuses are overflowing with improper sights, improperly dressed people, improper language, improper behavior, improper ideas and ideology, etc.

TOO MANY TEMPTATIONS for your eyes, ears and mouth and mind.

Unless you are Tzadik Gamur, you cannot help but to have a big yeridah.

I was in college from 1987-1991 before I was involved in Yiddishkeit. I can only imagine how much worse campuses are today.
__________________
Achdus Yisroel!
yehonasan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 02:24 PM   #104
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Re: college frumies

Quote:
Originally posted by shnitzel
I heard the Rebbe said if you start college, you should finish college and if you didn't start you shouldn't go. Does anyone know the source of this and if it's true, etc?
Nonono!!! Please don't make another "position statement" out of some private Horo'os! There were certain people who were becoming Baalei Teshuva in college whom the Rebbe told to stay and finish their degree. The main difference in a general case between their case and the average Jew going to college: By their becoming Baalei Teshuvah WHILE in college, they had already proved that they can overcome the temptations of college!
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 02:26 PM   #105
yehonasan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 231
you are right bittul. We must be very careful NOT to learn out a general hora'ah from a private one -- especially in this situation of college.
__________________
Achdus Yisroel!
yehonasan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 02:49 PM   #106
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
Quote:
By their becoming Baalei Teshuvah WHILE in college, they had already proved that they can overcome the temptations of college!
whereas FFBs who went.....

Still there are colleges/institutes today where you can get an education without "the campus"
That did not exist years ago....
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 03:14 PM   #107
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
I guess that would fall into the "studying secular subjects" problem...
hishtatchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-02-2003, 11:32 PM   #108
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
what about online college? can that count? because when we study online we can flip over to this site which dosen't cause bittul torah at all (yes that was a sarcastic statement)....
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-03-2003, 12:28 AM   #109
Dr. Yisroel
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 313
Look in the teen section you should find a thread on going to college. I don't remember what it is called. There I wrote about the Rebbe's view.

College is a dangerous place for a Jew. I will tell you a short story.
Last year I was in a pediatric ICU somewhere in middle america learning Gemara. I doctor walked in looked over my shoulder. "Ah, Kesubos." He turns away and starts repeating the gemara on the daf I was learning verbatim.

I was shocked. "How do you know this Gemara?" I questioned. He response was, "IT IS DIFFICULT TO BE A FRUM JEW IN MEDICAL SCHOOL."

He contniued to tell me his story. I was able to relate to him. I went to College myself.
__________________
Yisroel
Dr. Yisroel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-03-2003, 12:57 PM   #110
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
AND YOU SEEMED TO TURN OUT FINE..... i don't understand why we should prevent others from making money... now a days it is verry difficult to get anywhere with out a college degree...so what is the solution to that?
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-03-2003, 04:34 PM   #111
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally posted by icewolf770
AND YOU SEEMED TO TURN OUT FINE..... i don't understand why we should prevent others from making money... now a days it is verry difficult to get anywhere with out a college degree...so what is the solution to that?
And in Europe it was very difficult to make money (not to mention keeping your life) without being ******ian... so what is the solution to that?
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-04-2003, 08:59 PM   #112
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
in europe or in america??? which are we talking about... yes america is not diffrent than europe in regards to many things... but it seems to me that america is harder than europe... at least the jews in the shtetle didn't have to contend with what is going on now... just their physical lives were more at stake... now its our spirituall lives.... so the ultimate question is... if it is wrong to go to college because of all the pritzus there... then why do we send young impressionable childern there to do mivtzaiim????
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-04-2003, 10:50 PM   #113
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally posted by icewolf770
then why do we send young impressionable childern there to do mivtzaiim????
The Rebbe said clearly that he takes on his shoulders the responsibility for Mivtsoim. It's discussed elsewhere on this site.

And my point wasn't Europe or America. My point was that Judaism and Chassidus don't particularly care if something is difficult to live with or without!
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-04-2003, 10:51 PM   #114
RebYid
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,141
For "impressionable children" too?
RebYid is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 01:01 AM   #115
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
i understand your point... but what i don't understand is why it is ok to go out there to bring yiddin back but its not ok to go there so that your family won't starve....also, i know many young people who went out on mivtzaiim and had problems...as well as the ones who went out and did great things... truly i don't think that learning a profession is an evil... after all we ask those who have gone to college and made lots of money to donate it to our variouse causese.......isn't that sort of hypocritical.... that we say your money is good but the way you came by it is not?
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 01:09 AM   #116
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
No, because as a general rule college is bad, for specific people we make exceptions.

Besides, since when do we EVER cut off a person because of a decision he made (correct or otherwise)?
hishtatchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 01:13 AM   #117
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
Quote:
Originally posted by hishtatchus
No, because as a general rule college is bad, for specific people we make exceptions.

Besides, since when do we EVER cut off a person because of a decision he made (correct or otherwise)?
it seems to me that we are sitting here saying that college is bad don't go to college but many people do... and by making that judgement it can cause feelings of unwantedness to rise up...and i have personally experienced getting cut off by many people in the lubavitch world from past actions and decisions of mine....
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 01:33 AM   #118
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
We aren't the ones making the judgement- it's the Rebbe making the judgement.

I'm sorry if people cut you off because of your actions. I've gotten pretty burned because of things I've done too, but it's not the response of Lubavitch, but the response of Lubavitchers who don't know better.
hishtatchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 02:09 AM   #119
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
i agree with you on that one... that it is the response of lubavitchers who don't know better... but it hurts when it comes from your own... know what i mean? and it is even worse when they are the ones espousing love thy neighbor...blah blah...
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 08:23 AM   #120
whynot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 190
i don't know if this point was made b/4 (i did not read the 'going to College', in the teen section').
i do believe that the Rebbe's fight against going to College was revolutionary, the Rebbe fought against the idoelogy 'that a person must have a College degree in order to survive in America,
and that a yeshiva education is worthless'. [a similar fight was that a 'child must get secular education to survive]
The rebbe's main response was 'birchas Hashem he tashir'.
However after someone finished yeshivah, simcha and Kollel, now he is looking for work- why can't he go the College and learn a profession (why would that be any differant, from yesteryear blacksmith?)
there is another problem with going to College the 'pritzus' and diffuclty to be a Torah Jew. to this problem after marriage may help. or going to a 'frum' Colege.
in short the Rebbe fought goint to College 1) as a must 2) as a danger to Jewish lifestyle.
__________________
The final stretch
whynot is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 10:00 AM   #121
Bittul
Executive Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally posted by icewolf770
and i have personally experienced getting cut off by many people in the lubavitch world from past actions and decisions of mine....
No! I personally cut you back in :-)! And welcome you with open arms and heart! Here, take a big hug!!!!

At the end of the day, both the attitude regarding college and that regarding Mivtsoim are direct from the Rebbe, so that has to be the starting and ending point of any discussion regarding the issue.
Bittul is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 12:18 PM   #122
icewolf770
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 274
thank you .... sometimes we need small reminders.... as for college... i think that some of it is necicary... there are many seminaries that have college classes offered at the same location as the sem classes... and you can get a degree in shorter time than a regular college....
__________________
ettah m.
icewolf770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 09:46 PM   #123
Dr. Yisroel
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 313
There are many ways of getting a good degree without going to college and being exposed to it.

Today, when hiring, we will take experience before education. So pick a field, start reading up on it, get good experience.... and Hashem will provide.
__________________
Yisroel
Dr. Yisroel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-05-2003, 10:13 PM   #124
zaque36
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 767
icewolf, whadaya say to the all the people out there that are doing fine (parnossah wise and otherwise) and they don't have a college degree. Of any sort. You can't try to win over Hashem...If it's wrong, it's wrong.....on rosh hashona, hashem decided your amount of $ that u'll get...remember that.
__________________
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box.
zaque36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2003, 09:35 AM   #125
yehonasan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 231
Dr. brings up a good point: If you learn a skill/profession and start off in business; and you work EXTREMELY HARD, you can make as much or more $$ than many with college degrees.

I am over-educated and make very little.
__________________
Achdus Yisroel!
yehonasan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Open Your Eyes Jude Moshiach 177 05-01-2016 05:12 AM
The Rebbe's University Education Yankel Nosson The Rebbe’s Talks & Writings 47 04-13-2010 05:07 PM
Modern Orthodoxy Jude Hashkafah 133 02-17-2010 10:02 AM
Messiah Indifference by David Berger endee Book Reviews 413 05-09-2006 08:59 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com