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Unread 11-28-2004, 04:26 PM   #226
roza
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Re: Going to College

<<<theres degrees through the internet>>>

right - good option for someone who needs to provide for his big family and wants to afford living in CH.

like this one:
http://www.tourou.edu/university/index.htm
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Unread 11-28-2004, 05:06 PM   #227
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Re: Going to College

true, but it is a safer alternative to living on campus...
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Unread 11-29-2004, 07:45 AM   #228
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Re: Going to College

in chelek tes vov of likutie sichos the first sicha of parshas noach, the third si'if explains e/t so sharply and clearly
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Unread 11-29-2004, 08:32 AM   #229
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Re: Going to College

maybe you'd like to relate what it says there....
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Unread 11-29-2004, 10:06 AM   #230
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Re: Going to College

http://otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv....ilIF=G&ilSC=30

http://otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv....ilIF=G&ilSC=30

That is the 3rd sif - i dont see a connection...
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Unread 11-29-2004, 11:36 AM   #231
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Re: Going to College

You don't see the connection? I saw the word college in there like 50 times! (what are u talking about farshtuptmentch?)
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Unread 05-24-2005, 07:40 PM   #232
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University

hello,
i am desesperate here, i need an answer as soon as possible, i finished two years of seminary, a year of shlichus (im a girl) and now, i want desesperately to go to do my studies in the university...
what do you think
mitsad kibud av Vaem, my father really wants me to go and do it and is encouraging me to go and to do my studies...
i need help
thanks
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Unread 05-24-2005, 08:32 PM   #233
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Very funny you bring this up because i my class also had issues with university. We had ppl speak to us about it, basically we learned that the Rebbe's main veiw was that University is a prust place and not where ANY Jew belongs, Boy or Girl. Abd even a person strong in yiddishkeit can be weakend by what goes on there, no matter what they think. Plus they also learn alot of apikorses there.
One of my teachers went to touro, the Frum one and she said when a bunch of mammash frum women sit together in a class its alot diff, but i wouldn't know. Anyway i also still have alot of questions about this too.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 02:55 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by segulah358
hello,
i am desesperate here, i need an answer as soon as possible, i finished two years of seminary, a year of shlichus (im a girl) and now, i want desesperately to go to do my studies in the university...
what do you think
mitsad kibud av Vaem, my father really wants me to go and do it and is encouraging me to go and to do my studies...
i need help
thanks
b'h
Without being privy to the specifics of your ruchnisdeka situation, career goals etc. its hard to chime in, but here goes anyways.
In Dec. I graduated summa cum laude (with honors) from Marquette University in Milwaukee, WI. Although I wasnt raised orthodox my entire life, I am a full fledged Lubavitcher, and was when I began college. I used my time to farshpriten yidishkit collaborating closely with the local shliach in arranging friday night shabbosom, farbrengens and other events for college students. Personally, my experience served to reinforce and enhance my Judaism; but more importantly it gave me the opportunity to inform other students of their Judaism, by shattering misconception, esp. those surrounding gender issues, abortion issues, and Torahs/Talmudic jurisprudence. I loved it!

Have you selected a major?
I would suggest steering clear of philosophy, theology, anthropology, even psychology, perhaps sociology for reasons that these classes tend to have more apikorsis ideas. Try to avoid taking unnecessary classes in those disciplines.
Your seminary credits should fulfill most of your theo and phil requirements, if they transfer.
Physics, chemistry, criminal justice, pre-law etc tend to deal more with neutral subjects that pose less of a "challenge" to yidishkit. I majored in Criminology & Pre-law Studies.

Hope this helps
good luck with everything
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Unread 05-25-2005, 10:30 AM   #235
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17, Iyar, 5765

Though Ive heard stories of The Rebbe encouraging people ALREADY in college to finish, I have never (to my recollection) heard stories where The Rebbe instructed people to enroll. As previously noted, The Rebbe was actually against entering the university.

About two years ago, I graduated from CSUN with a BA in communications. I also hold an AA in Liberal Studies, and only need one more class which I can take at my discretion - to obtain another in Philosophy. For the record, I dont intend to take that one more class, ever.

Though, admittedly, I dealt mostly with the more liberal humanities, Ive taken classes in the math & science departments as well. The latter they may be more neutral in terms of pushing moral relativism, but this is compensated for by their advancing something just as bad: atheism (the theory of evolution, etc).

I personally witnessed the tremendous spiritual and intellectual ruin that almost always befalls college students. By then, their parents see the truth of The Rebbes words, but their formerly upright children have already relinquished any real respect for them, and are headed down the path of no return.

Though there are exceptions to this, they are few and far between. It is my opinion that anyone who enters college is literally taking their life into their hands. We cannot rely on miracles, as Chazal state. My personal experience was mentioned only to add to what we already know to be true from The Rebbe, who has only told us the way it is.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 12:27 PM   #236
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milwaukee, you've gone into very dangerous territory, and might want to look at some of the threads (at least one) that talk about the Rebbe's position on universities, as mirrored in the post following yours.

seg, your personal situation seems unclear. Is your father a Lubavitcher? Aside from that, is there a particular job that you are looking for, or do you want the university experience/credentials? Because there are many frume (or even not) training programs for specific jobs.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 12:27 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chassidic1
BH
17, Iyar, 5765

Though Ive heard stories of The Rebbe encouraging people ALREADY in college to finish, I have never (to my recollection) heard stories where The Rebbe instructed people to enroll. As previously noted, The Rebbe was actually against entering the university.

About two years ago, I graduated from CSUN with a BA in communications. I also hold an AA in Liberal Studies, and only need one more class which I can take at my discretion - to obtain another in Philosophy. For the record, I dont intend to take that one more class, ever.

Though, admittedly, I dealt mostly with the more liberal humanities, Ive taken classes in the math & science departments as well. The latter they may be more neutral in terms of pushing moral relativism, but this is compensated for by their advancing something just as bad: atheism (the theory of evolution, etc).

I personally witnessed the tremendous spiritual and intellectual ruin that almost always befalls college students. By then, their parents see the truth of The Rebbes words, but their formerly upright children have already relinquished any real respect for them, and are headed down the path of no return.

Though there are exceptions to this, they are few and far between. It is my opinion that anyone who enters college is literally taking their life into their hands. We cannot rely on miracles, as Chazal state. My personal experience was mentioned only to add to what we already know to be true from The Rebbe, who has only told us the way it is.
B'H
1. Your using a very broad brush making generalization of a few isolated cases you have come in contact with. I doubt your sample is very representative.
2. Though you are right that the Rebbe rarely encouraged single people to go to college, its my understanding that the Rebbe did encourage married people, however. I know several cases of this myself.

3. The Rebbe looked at situation by situation, never using reductionism, as you seem to be by your tone suggesting "spiritual doom and gloom" from getting an education. (You seem to have turned out fine to me, btw???)

4. The Rebbe was very explicit, moreover, in encouraging people to go out into the world to bring G-dliness, not fearing the world or living as a reclusive Tzadek in peltz. Thats selfish.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 02:00 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee
B'H
1. Your using a very broad brush making generalization of a few isolated cases you have come in contact with. I doubt your sample is very representative.
2. Though you are right that the Rebbe rarely encouraged single people to go to college, its my understanding that the Rebbe did encourage married people, however. I know several cases of this myself.

3. The Rebbe looked at situation by situation, never using reductionism, as you seem to be by your tone suggesting "spiritual doom and gloom" from getting an education. (You seem to have turned out fine to me, btw???)

4. The Rebbe was very explicit, moreover, in encouraging people to go out into the world to bring G-dliness, not fearing the world or living as a reclusive Tzadek in peltz. Thats selfish.
We have had this conversation already, as bittul has pointed out.
The total disregard for the Rebbe's public position on this issue - both orally and written (in LS) - is mind boggling.
Those who were "encouraged" to go - married or not - were the exception, not the rule.
The last point about bringing G-dliness in to the world, is not relevant to the issue at hand at all, and in this context -the direct opposite of the Rebbe's shita, as the Rebbe makes clear in the printed sicha where he discusses this.
And from my personal experience - almost all those whom I know that went to college - even in "kosher" settings, have been affected, either in subtle or not so subtle ways.

Last edited by Torah613; 05-25-2005 at 02:02 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 02:15 PM   #239
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http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4279
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75

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Unread 05-25-2005, 04:13 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
We have had this conversation already, as bittul has pointed out.
The total disregard for the Rebbe's public position on this issue - both orally and written (in LS) - is mind boggling.
Those who were "encouraged" to go - married or not - were the exception, not the rule.
The last point about bringing G-dliness in to the world, is not relevant to the issue at hand at all, and in this context -the direct opposite of the Rebbe's shita, as the Rebbe makes clear in the printed sicha where he discusses this.
And from my personal experience - almost all those whom I know that went to college - even in "kosher" settings, have been affected, either in subtle or not so subtle ways.
b'h
you really think your "personal" experince is representative!?! If your from NY (crown heights esp) or LA I can enumerate many reasons why your sample is not representative!

Lets please try to be commensensical about this.
What is specific about college exposure that differs from real world exposure? Is it the more widspread unbalanced liberal faculty that dominate campuses nationwide? Is it the coed classes? Studying with "goyim"?
In what ways does listening to a professor mischaracterize the truth, differ from listenig to some jo sjmo on mivtzaim "challenge" or mischaracerize yidishkit???
I'm trying to understand, please respond politely........
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Unread 05-25-2005, 05:10 PM   #241
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As Torah613 and Bittul have said, your personal feelings on the matter are partially irrelevant, as the Rebbe's position is clear; nevertheless I will attempt to respond to some of your questions.

1) Why is college different from "the real world"?

Generally, a person does not purposely entrench themselves in the Goyishe culture and counterculture. All the more so in a college campus, where students are often experimenting with morals and values. The entire atmosphere, the partying, social scene, and emphasis on secular education- is an antithesis to the Chabad, and Jewish, ideal.

The issues you brought up, the co-ed classes and surrounding oneself with Goyim are indeed an issue, but only part of the surrounding problem. The Rebbe's stand against college was not merely one of atmosphere, as you may be aware, but that the whole IDEA of needing a college education is problematic.

2) How does listening to Apikorsus from a professor differ from hearing the same Apikorsus from Ploni on Mivtzoyim?

The question in itself provides the answer. When a person comes into a situation as a Mashpia, to affect others, he himself will not be affected. (This concept is a Halachik one as well.) When you are on Mivtzoyim, you are attempting to give to someone, to inspire someone. You are not coming in as subservient, not looking up to him as the professor.

What's worse is that there are indeed issues that can be brought up that will affect your Yiddishkeit. I recall hearing (don't remember where, sorry) that it is recommended to learn the Kuzari backwards- first the answer, then the question, so that at no point will you be doubting your Yiddishkeit. Of course you can eventually find an answer to any debate, however logical, your professor brings you. But where are you until that stage?

---

I will reiterate that EVEN IF you read the above and say, "None of that applies to me, I'm stronger, can withstand it, will ignore my professor's remarks, am smarter than him, don't respect him, don't live on campus, am not affected by my surroundings" - still, that doesn't give you license to ignore the Rebbe's words. As stated previously, those told to attend college were EXCEPTIONS- and to decide that you are an exception takes very broad shoulders.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 05:14 PM   #242
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Oh, yes, and I will add- I was raised on a college campus neither in NY or LA...
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Unread 05-25-2005, 05:47 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee
b'h
you really think your "personal" experince is representative!?! If your from NY (crown heights esp) or LA I can enumerate many reasons why your sample is not representative!
Actually, yes I do. Where I am from (or where they are from) or am (or where they are) is not the discussion here. We can make "distinctions without differences" from today to tommorow - the Rebbe's public concerns apply. The onus is on you (after seeing what the Rebbe says about this topic) to explain why it doesn't.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 06:33 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Actually, yes I do. Where I am from (or where they are from) or am (or where they are) is not the discussion here.
That's because the negative testamonials you have are from one of those places, hey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
We can make "distinctions without differences" from today to tommorow - the Rebbe's public concerns apply. The onus is on you (after seeing what the Rebbe says about this topic) to explain why it doesn't.
True, however, the Rebbe did make numerous exceptions factoring in different variables such as location, past background, spirutal matziv etc etc. Alot of that is subject to wild speculation, and presuppositons of what the Rebbe had in mind when exceptions were made.
Youre right the burden is on me, and i can point to myriads of cases where college reinforced, enhance, peoples Yidishkit; or especially cases where fruma people were able to influnce students/faculty, as was the case with me.

Last edited by milwaukee; 05-25-2005 at 06:36 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 07:08 PM   #245
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Exclamation

Bs"d
No use justifying what you did, But say Boruch Hashem that you were mushpa others and not the other way. Anyways, you obviously realize that university is a DANGEROUS place.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 09:42 PM   #246
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17, Iyar, 5765

In response to Mil:

1. I agree with you that my generalizations are not sufficient grounds for accepting my claim. It is for this very reason that I myself stated clearly that these cases were cited, only to add to what we already know to be true from The Rebbe, who has only told us the way it is this being the basis for my argument (appeal to authority).

If you do not find this sufficient, consider the observable increase in the demand by both parents and students - for Orthodox organizations to send couples to college campuses. The reason for this, as these organizations explicitly state, is specifically to strengthen Torah true Judaism on campus. This is a clear, widespread acknowledgement of the very dangers I mentioned in the aforementioned letter, which you doubt are very representative. (Worth pointing out is that this is the very reason The Rebbe, in foresight, sent Shluchim to universities years ago).

2. You concede: you are right that the Rebbe rarely encouraged single people to go to college, but subsequently assert that its your understanding that the Rebbe did encourage married people, however. As proof of this, you state: I know several cases of this myself.

My argument against your response is twofold:

Firstly, as regards your comment about married couples, it seemingly has no relevance to the case being discussed. For, this girl mentioned nothing about being married. Secondly, you appeal to the same form of evidence for which you (almost rightly) criticized me generalizing from a small sample size. (I say almost, as in reality I did not actually offer my statements as conclusive evidence).

Also, I wonder: Did the Rebbe send couples to campus as STUDENTS? If not, this comment would seem irrelevant in another respect, if not a support for my argument (in the event that they were sent as Shluchim to SAVE students from assimilating).

3. While it is true that The Rebbe examined cases presented before him individually, that in no way detracts from the validity of general statements that The Rebbe made about a whole variety of issues, such as Jews entering college. The Rebbe issued clear public warnings against this several times, in which you can find the messages of spiritual doom and gloom (read: real dangers of assimilation facing Jewish students entering university) you attribute to me. The reason for this, as explained in those places, is the education which you allude to is invariably antithetical to Torah, to whatever degree.

(In connection with your comment about how I seemed to have turned out fine to you: what qualifies you to make this judgment with any validity? In fact, even I myself may not be aware of the full extent of the negative impact going to college had on me. Especially, this applies to what now exists in my subconscious mind - my self-perception-, which influences every aspect of my life.

Even if we could both magically determine that I miraculously turned out just fine, this would in no way detract from the validity of The Rebbes statements. It would simply prove that I am a rare exception to the general rule. Someone who willingly risked his or her soul on the gamble that they too would come out unscathed, given these statements, would be acting unwisely).

4. While it is true that The Rebbe is known for openly encouraging people to go out into the world to bring G-dliness, we must not forget The Rebbes constant emphasis that this be done strictly according to Halacha. In the aforementioned teachings about Jews and college, The Rebbe writes about Halachic prohibitions virtually impossible to avoid on campus, citing these as reasons for not going. (For the same reason a violation of Halacha we dont go set up Mivtzayim booths in bars, casinos, and the like).

It is true that a reclusive life is selfish. The answer however, is not attempt to spread G-dliness in the world in a way that goes against our Rebbes directives, G-d forbid. For, that would effectively accomplish the exact opposite, and that is the greatest selfishness. (As the activities are done in The Rebbes name, which impacts how people view Lubavitch)
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Unread 05-25-2005, 10:13 PM   #247
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Here's something to ask yourselves : Will I get a REAL job in the REAL world without a college degree ? Is it possible that the Rebbe spoke about not going to college when a university degree was an "extra" and now it is essential, much like a high school diploma ? Shall I just assume that I will marry a smart rich boy who will take care of me ? What if my husband is not able to hold down a well-paying job, well-paying enough to support our many children ? What if he gets sick or dies ? Let me guess: we must trust in Hashem and do what the Rebbe told us and then everything will work out for the best. Check out the many, many widows or poor couples or families on foodstamps for whom that philosophy didn't work. Depending on miracles is also assur. Not going to college and expecting to be financially self-supporting is the equivalent of relying on a miracle.

I went to college and grad school and had some of the same experiences as Milkwaukee. I was shocked to find a complete lack of discussion on campus as everyone seemed to buy into the liberal mindset without any conscious thought or debate. I spent the majority of my years at college and in grad school challenging very extreme left-wing people to reconsider their opinions on a variety of subjects. The only "negative" from my having gone to college is that now I see so many extreme right-wing people who also buy into radical philosophies without analyzing the issue fully. This "issur" of going to college being a nice example of that.

The plus of my going to college and university is that I have a job that can provide for my family. Recently my husband was not well for a period of two months and could not work. If not for my paycheck, we would have had to borrow money to put food on the table.

Last edited by mcp; 05-25-2005 at 10:16 PM.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 10:19 PM   #248
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This topic just keeps coming up, and I think it was Torah613 who asked why, when the Rebbe is against college education in general and that he has condoned college at times as an exception. I agree wholeheartedly; bottom line is we should just do what the Rebbe says. But people are in desperate financial straits, and the Torah community is not taking care of them as it should. They are up sitting sleepless at the table the night before the rent is due, they are crying in the street because there is no money for groceries, they hate themselves because of the scorn they receive when they ask for tuition discounts, people in their own shul may look at their family's old clothes with disdain. My family has applied to Tomchei Shabbos 3 times over the last 6 years with no response, not even a denial-probably because not enough people are donating to them.

So, if the jewish community is not upholding its responsibility to take care of my family and at the same time I know a 2 year vocational degree would allow me to go from earning $12/hr. to $40/hr., pay the rent, buy food AND pay much more tuition at the kids' schools than I do now, it is hard to resist the yetzer hara. Wasn't it a truth acknowledged by the early chassidim, that the people's physical needs must be attended to before the spiritual? I know these are just excuses, but I'm honestly losing faith that if I do what the Rebbe says in this regard everything will be okay. I trust the Rebbe, but sadly I no longer trust the Chabad community to be with me if I follow the Rebbe on this. That's so awful to say.
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Unread 05-25-2005, 10:20 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwaukee
That's because the negative testamonials you have are from one of those places, hey.
That is your assumption, which is wrong.
Quote:


True, however, the Rebbe did make numerous exceptions factoring in different variables such as location, past background, spirutal matziv etc etc. Alot of that is subject to wild speculation, and presuppositons of what the Rebbe had in mind when exceptions were made.
Which is why basing oneself on those exceptions and making policy statements based on them - statements that are the opposite of the the Rebbe's policy statements, especially when giving reasons that the Rebbe specifically negated in his policy statements - is wrong.
Quote:
Youre right the burden is on me, and i can point to myriads of cases where college reinforced, enhance, peoples Yidishkit; or especially cases where fruma people were able to influnce students/faculty, as was the case with me.
And there are myriads of people where the opposite case is true, especially (but not limited to) when dealing with frum people from birth (which it seems is the case of the original questioner at the beginning of this thread) - or does that only apply in the geographic location of NY and LA?
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Unread 05-25-2005, 10:27 PM   #250
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mcp - we already had this identical discussion. For all those interested, look in the threads I linked to before.
betterhalf - as already mentioned in other threads, there are ways to get an education that will help you get a job - well paying ones (eventually) - without enrolling in university with all that entails, if one is willing to work at it. We see this all the time all around us.
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