Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Chinuch

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 06-27-2009, 10:05 PM   #26
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
And an institution that does not follow the Rebbe's instructions is not a Lubavitch institution.

But a school purporting to be a school for anash should follow the Rebbe's model. Otherwise, its only "so-called Lubavitch."
Ok, The Lubavitch Yeshiva Pittsburgh established by the F'R and under the name of Lubavitch and under the guidance of the Rebbe is not a Lubavitch institution because of your concise, undeniable, clear,perfect logic.
And anybody that doesn't follow the Rebbe according to your understanding of the Rebbe is not a Lubavitcher.

I suppose that you'll admit that you are not a Lubavitcher either since you don't follow every thing the Rebbe wanted. Especially the arrogant approach that you have.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 10:28 PM   #27
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Afaik, bocherim do not take seriously these English prgrams
well, it is a chassiddishe Ynian to do that, but the outcome it becomes a recreation time. a waiste of time
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 10:29 PM   #28
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
I didn't say anything about Pittsburgh. You're the one who wants to make this thing personal. I'm not interested in playing games. It certainly isn't arrogance to advocate the Rebbe's approach for the Rebbe's institutions. I'm not interested in making this personal by (stooping to your level and) answering your insults.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 10:48 PM   #29
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
Afaik, bocherim do not take seriously these English prgrams
well, it is a chassiddishe Ynian to do that, but the outcome it becomes a recreation time. a waiste of time
Wasting time is always wrong. See the answer of the Rebbe I brought in the aforementioned thread. Which in a way justifies the secular subjects taught in many schools.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 10:56 PM   #30
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
I didn't say anything about Pittsburgh. You're the one who wants to make this thing personal. I'm not interested in playing games. It certainly isn't arrogance to advocate the Rebbe's approach for the Rebbe's institutions. I'm not interested in making this personal by (stooping to your level and) answering your insults.

G-d forbid for you come down from your high throne and stoop to my level.
Or to play the games that I am playing. You are correct that you didn't mention Pittsburgh, so clearly, I am wrong in understanding your statements. Probably because I am so low and you are so high.

So, kavod harav, please explain to this lowly person what Yeshivot you are referring to with this comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
fact that there are (so-called) Lubavitch Schools that teach secular studies proves absolutely nothing. It isn't the only example of Lubavitch institutions that part ways with the Rebbe's teachings.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 11:34 PM   #31
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
I don't understand. You're asking me to talk Lashon Haroh? I don't think that's a good idea. You're the one so intent to talk about Pittsburgh. I'm not interested in giving this forum all of my opinions about Pittsburgh (or any other individual Yeshiva, for that matter). I think you're taking all of this a little too personally. If you can't discuss something civilly, then perhaps it is better not to discuss it at all, vd''l.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 11:36 PM   #32
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
*I posted this above. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to read it before deciding to call me names:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
Torah613 painted a very nice picture that even accounts for some of the philosophical subtleties of the Rebbe's position. But a school purporting to be a school for anash should follow the Rebbe's model. Otherwise, its only "so-called Lubavitch."
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 11:40 PM   #33
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
I don't understand. You're asking me to talk Lashon Haroh? I don't think that's a good idea. .
No, I don't want you to speak any more lashon haroh than this one statemnet that you already said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
fact that there are (so-called) Lubavitch Schools that teach secular studies proves absolutely nothing. It isn't the only example of Lubavitch institutions that part ways with the Rebbe's teachings.


I think that was more than enough.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 12:06 AM   #34
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
I'll turn the question around: you seem to think that teaching secular studies is entirely acceptable, despite the Rebbe's clear letters about the subject. How do you reconcile the Rebbe's letters with the fact that there are schools that teach secular studies? And it isn't enough to say that they exist, and that the Rebbe apparently did not take issue with them. You either believe that they are in violation of the Rebbe's letters and sichos, or not. Since the letters are very clear, then at the very least, you need to be able to point to other letters that show a different point of view (different circumstances, etc.) or have an extremely convincing explanation.

And I would appreciate it if you'd cut out the name calling and hostility. I may be wording my posts sharply (though I'm only quoting the Rebbe for the most part), but I have not made this personal, and I don't much want to.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 11:19 AM   #35
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
I'll turn the question around: you seem to think that teaching secular studies is entirely acceptable, despite the Rebbe's clear letters about the subject

How do you reconcile the Rebbe's letters with the fact that there are schools that teach secular studies?

.
It's not always as black and white as you want to make it Meshulam. What might be the prescribed approach for one person doesn't make it the same approach for everyone. You had people coming to the USA from Europe who only had a Yeshiva education before and then they were faced with pressures of abandoning the Torah education for secular education. The Rebbe addresses those people. There are the Jews already living in the USA with only a secular education and no Torah education. The Rebbe address those people differently. The point is that not every Jew is in the same place. The secular studies issue depends on the person. It's good that you are so sincere in your beliefs, but you have to remember that it was the Ahava Yisroel of the students of Rabbi Akiva that led them to denigrate their fellow students, which led to the plague r"l. Each was so sure that his approach was the correct one that he had to compel his friend to follow that approach. Of course out of love.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
And it isn't enough to say that they exist, and that the Rebbe apparently did not take issue with them.
The Alter Rebbe used the expression, tzarich lehavin, we need to understand, as apposed to the expression, kasha or difficulty, when approaching the Torah. The first expression indicates that it is the student who is lacking in understanding and that's why a contradiction seems to exist. The later expression implies that there is a problem in the Torah, C"V. The fact that the Rebbe founded a Yeshiva that teaches secular studies is enough of a proof that the Yeshiva is not going against the Rebbe, C"V. Aye, you see a contradiction. So approach it with the tzarich lehavin approach rather than the quite different one that you have been using .[/quote]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
You either believe that they are in violation of the Rebbe's letters and sichos, or not. Since the letters are very clear, then at the very least, you need to be able to point to other letters that show a different point of view (different circumstances, etc.) or have an extremely convincing explanation.
.
No, I don't have to bring any more proof than the fact that the Rebbe established the Yeshivot that teach secular studies. I don't need to have an explanation to convince you. You have a problem with what the Rebbe did, then you need to work on your self and get over it.

When it comes to deciding which Yeshiva to go to or to send your children to, then ask your Rav.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 11:41 AM   #36
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
In other words, you don't have an answer. You have a lot of invective, and have thrown a lot of insults around. And, in your most recent post, you speak to me (and to others on this forum) as if I were a little child. But, at the end of the day, you have no response to the Rebbe's clear directives outlined in the Rebbe's letters that I quoted above. There isn't even a weak response to them. No response at all. Instead, you point to the alleged existence of a bunch of Yeshivos that the Rebbe established with secular programs (and specify one in particular, inviting me to talk lashon haroh about it). But no response to the actual letters other than to say that apparently when the Rebbe says things clearly, its the Chossid's job to pretend he wasn't listening.

Do you at least admit that the Rebbe's letters are clear? Or can you find shades of gray in those as well?
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 11:49 AM   #37
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
the letters as well as the existing institutions speak for themselves

there are 2 realities in different levels
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 11:54 AM   #38
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
2 realities? Different levels? What does that mean with respect to nidon didan. That the Rebbe says one thing, and that the Chassidim do something else? I'm aware of that. But something tells me that the letters weren't written for that purpose.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 12:17 PM   #39
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
the letters as well as the existing institutions speak for themselves

there are 2 realities in different levels
I think I addressed this point already.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 12:23 PM   #40
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
In other words, you don't have an answer.
I already gave you the answer. Work on understanding it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
have a lot of invective, and have thrown a lot of insults around. And, in your most recent post, you speak to me as if I were a little child.
Call it an insult or call it an observation of your approach, whatever.
It is your arrogance that I am pointing out to you.

It is your "kasha" approach, which is arrogant. It is your inability to abandon your opinion on a matter even when the Rebbe established a Yeshiva that teaches secular studies, and that these yeshivot are run by G-d fearing, chassidim, shluchim, who have dedicated their lives to the Rebbe.
Yet you won't see the err of your ways. Don't read Eish avon machsahavosov rather eish own etc.. One who won't move on his thoughts. v d'l.

As far as speaking to you like a child. I am telling you what I think you need to hear. However, If you think that I am speaking to you like a child and it bothers you, then take that as a sign and work on yourself.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 12:32 PM   #41
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Apparently, you just want to lecture. I've lost interest in being lectured.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 01:24 PM   #42
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
It is your inability to abandon your opinion on a matter even when the Rebbe established a Yeshiva that teaches secular studies, and that these yeshivot are run by G-d fearing, chassidim, shluchim, who have dedicated their lives to the Rebbe.
Do all these shluchim send their own children to these schools and to the secular classes in particular? I know many cases where they don't...which should tell us something, perhaps.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 01:40 PM   #43
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Do all these shluchim send their own children to these schools and to the secular classes in particular? I know many cases where they don't...which should tell us something, perhaps.
I can't speak for "all shluchim" or all yeshivos about where they send their own children. I know first hand of shluchim who do send their children to the elementary level of secular/Chabad schools, and then send them to Crown Heights or other places after they get older. The same shluchim would not serve chalav akum to any Jew and only drink chalav Yisroel themselves. We are not talking about secular studies as treif as some have implied on this thread. There are two approaches to this subject and depending on one's personal situation either could be correct if the right choice is made.

What would clearly be better for one person my not be the better for another.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 01:42 PM   #44
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
That is a different point - whether different situations warrant different approaches. That was not really the question here.
I would also suggest taking an Igros of the Rebbe, looking in the indexes under לימודי חול, and see what you come up with. That may answer and clear up some of the issues here...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 02:07 PM   #45
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
That was not really the question here.
.
Please remind me of "the" question. This thread started with Darwin and then went to secular studies and then to Lubavitch Yeshivas with secular studies.

I do agree with your post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I do not think that there can be a question that as an ideal - the Rebbe felt that there should not be any secular studies at all, for boys and girls.

Nonetheless, when schools were opened in different places many decades ago - including in NY - AKA as "day schools", where the purpose was to get children out of public schools or schools that were very far from a kosher chinuch, and to get these children into a yeshiva system, the practicalities were such that those schools had to have secular studies in order to have any hope of acheiving its goals. Therefore, I do not see the contradiction at all from the founding of the Pittsburgh yeshiva.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the Rebbe used 2 distinct phrases:

1) Chinuch Hakosher (חינוך הכשר) - which referred to a chinuch al pi Torah with secular subjects part of the day, and

2) Chinuch al pi Taharas hakodesh (על פי טהרת הקודש), which referred to a chinuch without secular subjects at all.
So, as long as you are not calling secular "treif" we are in agreement.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 02:30 PM   #46
Kookoo Kabalist
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 425
Not only had the Rebbe phrased them differently, the terms "Chinuch HaKosher" and "Chinuch Al Taharas HaKodesh" had always referred to two distinct levels of education. This the Rebbe indicated many times.

As T613 mentioned above, "HaKosher" referred to day-schools, and "Al Taharas HaKodesh" - miloshoin "kodoish umuvdal" - referred to limudei kodesh only.
Kookoo Kabalist is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 02:31 PM   #47
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post


So, as long as you are not calling secular "treif" we are in agreement.
this is why I wanted to compare it to Pas AKum,

or maybe to :kadesh et atzmecha be mutar lach"
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 02:49 PM   #48
Fesoy
Executive Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
this is why I wanted to compare it to Pas AKum,
IMO, Pas akum doesn't fit. You won't find pas akum at a Chabad function at the Yeshiva where secular studies are taught.
Fesoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 04:24 PM   #49
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
Please remind me of "the" question. This thread started with Darwin and then went to secular studies and then to Lubavitch Yeshivas with secular studies.
That which was brought up in the first couple of posts in this thread - the attitude of the Rebbe toward limudei chol.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-28-2009, 05:07 PM   #50
chossidnistar
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
IMO, Pas akum doesn't fit. You won't find pas akum at a Chabad function at the Yeshiva where secular studies are taught.
b/c is not a need
I mean that is kosher, but not chassidishe
secular might be kosher, but is definetly not chassidishe
chossidnistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Self-Knowledge Test Jude General 17 11-21-2008 12:41 AM
Knowledge of Future Events by Tzaddikim Yankel Nosson Hot Topics 22 06-15-2006 04:11 AM
Knowledge and Belief Jude Hashkafah 8 06-07-2005 06:55 PM
Source of Knowledge of Mekubolim noahidelaws Chassidus 25 05-31-2005 04:32 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com