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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:32 PM   #26
MahTovChelkeinu
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that kind of thing is exactly why I want to teach limudei chol in a jewish school.
You are a brave man.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:35 PM   #27
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I did not understand the last two posts. Anyone care to explain?
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:42 PM   #28
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Can anyone please define what we mean by "limudei chol" in the context of this discussion? Perhaps Noah would, as he started it?
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:43 PM   #29
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Can anyone please define what we mean by "limudei chol" in the context of this discussion? Perhaps Noah would, as he started it?
I meant "secular subjects as mandated by the American Federal Government".
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
You are a brave man.
either that or crazy.

but more than likely a foolish mix of both.

and t613, as I see it you can take the alter rebbe's phrase that noahides is translating as "secular studies" in a number of different veins, of differeing severity.

One would be as he is trying to translate it, anything but torah. (but if so why did it not say chochmos acheiros??)

or one can translate it as excluding something such as math, which is obvious to anyone who examines it, and to include secular litturature and non-heretical philosophy. (aesop's faebles for instance) to say nothing of heretical philosophy and sifrei avoda zara, which are totaly assur.

and on can also translate it to exclude those and only include non-heretical non-jewish philosophies, for which there are basicaly no reason to study, you can get the jewish bent from torah sources, so why study these?

and one can taitch it to exclude all of the above and only include under its relm heretical materials, or sifrei avoda zara, but that would be strange, because then should he not say shalosh klipos hatameios? (the rebbe mentions something about this in his letter i don't feel comfortable enough to relate what I thought i read.)

but the question is which one of these is the intent of the alter rebbe's usage of the term? i'm not entirely sure. we could probably research it to find out though.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:45 PM   #31
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I am speaking about what the AlteRebbe refers to in Perek 8 as חכמות אומות. In my mind, that encompasses quite a bit.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:51 PM   #32
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But not all.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by existwhere? View Post
I think Limudei Chol is important but should be raised to Kodesh. For example, you can teach grammar with good stories and teach history showing the Yad HaShem, teach math to help you build sukkas and teach science because Mah Rabu Maasecha HaShem.All this is Torah because HKBH Histakel BOraysa UBara Alma.
It's the other way around: limmudei chol isn't important in its own right. We should learn only Torah, and limmudei chol only where clearly necessary.
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Re me:
1) Lo somchim al hanes. [Gam k'shekoreh b'derech hateva.]

2) No, it's not suffering, l'hefech. But not being able to manage on your own can cause suffering. Torah im derech eretz....

3) Read the last line of the perek over again, and it fits.

Nowadays, everyone has to da mah shetashiv....

Now, what's "absolutely necessary"?
You clearly haven't learned the Rebbe's letters against limmudei chol, for only learning limmudei kodesh until later in life.
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
To learn kiddush hachodesh to the point of understanding halachah l'maaseh, a person needs some understanding of trigonometry and algebra to make the calculations, some understanding of basic physics and mechanics (what equipment is needed to take these measurements), and a basic understanding of technical writing to be able to write down one's calculations in a coherent fashion. Geography and astronomy are also helpful.
If one needs it to pasken, he can learn it, but until then he doesn't need to--girls certainly don't need to.
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The attitude that these subjects should be avoided until absolutely neccesary for parnosa means that a G-d fearing Jew can never be a doctor l'chatchila ch'v. By the time parnosa is an issue, its too late to go to medical school. And if there is money to support the school education, there will be someone to say: "see parnosa isn't an issue yet, go learn in kollel."
Ask what you like,, this is the Rebbe's shita. Guess you didn't know.
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Can anyone please define what we mean by "limudei chol" in the context of this discussion? Perhaps Noah would, as he started it?
I don't understand the question.
As for the "pilpul" about what "chochmas ho'umos" refers to--it's not complex--it means learning the ideas of the goyim.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
It's the other way around: limmudei chol isn't important in its own right. We should learn only Torah, and limmudei chol only where clearly necessary.
Not in its own right, perhaps, but as a means to an end, yes. You need to live in the world...

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You clearly haven't learned the Rebbe's letters against limmudei chol, for only learning limmudei kodesh until later in life.
It isn't a topic I've researched in depth, no. Have I seen what the Rebbe said? Yes.

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If one needs it to pasken, he can learn it, but until then he doesn't need to--girls certainly don't need to.
You need it for other things, too, nowadays.

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I don't understand the question.
As for the "pilpul" about what "chochmas ho'umos" refers to--it's not complex--it means learning the ideas of the goyim.
Define "chachmat ha'umot". Math? Nope. History? Nope- those are straight facts [and boring]. Science? Possibly parts, not all. English? So don't speak it, either. Geography? Not a chachma, and necessary. Geometry? Nope. Nu...? What subjects am I missing that are taught in elementary school? Ah, music...no, teach Jewish stuff, don't teach Beethoven. But you may need to know the history of it, and the basics of how it works.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I don't understand the question.
Simple: Some can (and do) define it as learning to read and write english. Some can (and do) use a definition that includes basic math. Or elementary science. Etc. etc. Therefore, I think it important to know what we are discussing, before discussing and arguing about it.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:08 PM   #36
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Define "chachmat ha'umot". Math? Nope. History? Nope- those are straight facts [and boring]. Science? Possibly parts, not all. English? So don't speak it, either. Geography? Not a chachma, and necessary. Geometry? Nope. Nu...? What subjects am I missing that are taught in elementary school? Ah, music...no, teach Jewish stuff, don't teach Beethoven. But you may need to know the history of it, and the basics of how it works.
Lets try that again... with a little division into subparts, the subjects are:

Math
-Arithmetic
-Algebra
-Geometry/Trigonometry
-Calculus
English
-Technical writing
-Creative writing
-Literature
-Speaking
History/Social Studies
-World History
-Local National History
-Government/Political Science
-Geography
Science
-Biology
-Chemistry
-Physics
-Psychology
Other
-Music
-Economics
-Foreign Language
-Physical Education / Sports

When the subject involves learning facts (low level learning), there is no chochmos haolamos. When the subject involves using some seichel (drawing conclusions) then there is a danger. For example, learning that in 1492, the Spanish expelled the Jews is not problematic. Learning that they expelled the Jews because xyz runs into trouble.

Hard math is pretty parve because it exists outside of the real world. Physics however, even hardcore physics, is a problem because it starts answering the "why" questions about the real world. And that is when you run into trouble.

I think the "why" portion is where folks like Ktonton feel like they can make a difference, and in many cases where they succeed. An appreciation for the world, as EW pointed out earlier, makes for a big emunah boost. I saw a great "Asher Yotzar" sign once that said, in I believe Rabbi Cuttler's name: "If a person would understand the process that occurs between eating the food and expelling the waste, he would send a telegram home each time to report the success of the procedure." Knowing biology can make for better brochos.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:20 PM   #37
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Wow, MTC, thanks for the list.

Yes, this is true. I believe the chachma is knowing what in the "why" is problematic, and what is not...and where the borders lie.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:55 PM   #38
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MT, don't you think you should research the Rebbe's words thoroughly before expressing an opinion on the topic?

MTC, you exhibit a basic lack of understanding of the Alter Rebbe's words. He in no way qualifies that the problem is learning things that border on heresy. He says the wisdom of the goyim--period. As for reading biology in order to know niflo'os ha'borei, I think it's great--in the bathroom, as per the Rebbe's letter cited above.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:57 PM   #39
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Perhaps. But if I'm researching specific other topics, should I change? I still have an opinion, and state it from what I've read on the topic- from the Rebbe and from others. It's not like I'm ignorant of the Rebbe's opinion. But from what I've read, I don't think it's a מוחלט (please translate, someone...I lost the English) ruling.

"Borei" deserves a capital.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 10:35 PM   #40
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Noah - let me ask again, in light of my above clarification: What do you classify as LC, or, better yet - not Taharas Hakodesh?
I will also add the following reference, in Igros v 29 p 262, where the Rebbe writes very emphatically, that wasted time is worse than limudei chol. That may answer the question of the OP.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 11:00 PM   #41
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MT, based on the way you write, let's just say that I think I've looked into it more than you, and since that you admit that you are yet to research the matter thoroughly, I think you should not form an opinion until you do so.

Torah613, I admit that basic arithmetic does not qualify as limudei chol.

Let me phrase my question differently: For boys a whole school, Oholei Torah, was set up for boys not to study limudei chol, except some bare minimum. Similar schools exist in other places in the world, though no where near enough. My question is why such a school is not accompanied by a parallel girls' school. Clearly, no one learns Tanya and takes it seriously, and cares that the minds of girls should be kept pure. And then we're all surprised that we're plagued with the matzav of vechulu vedal.

I'm not saying that girls should learn Torah in the same way as boys, as the Rebbe explained. But that's not a reason to pollute their minds, either.

I agree that wasted time is bad, but how hard did the teachers try to fill a day with a curriculum of kedusha? In fact, I don't think anyone is thinking in that direction in the first place.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 11:57 PM   #42
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IMHO, the matzav of vechula vedal that you refer to, is not because of the LC that they learn in the schools, VAKML.
I am not aware that Ohelei Torah teaches the boys basic math.
I believe that the Detroit mosdos have some such program for girls, but I may be mistaken.
Would such mosdos turn out better girls? I don't know. Does OT?
As far as the wasted time, I fear that even many of the boys mosdos that have no LC do not fulfill that directive of the Rebbe. VAKML.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 12:01 AM   #43
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MT, don't you think you should research the Rebbe's words thoroughly before expressing an opinion on the topic?
Noah, you cite a letter and then proceed to make sweeping statements about education which several posters apparently disagree with. Your response is essentially to say that you know better than all of us (or the Rebbe, according to your reading, knows better than all of us). How about, instead of addressing people's posts so derisively, you use your vast knowledge of Chassidus to point out some specific quotes that support your point of view. I read the letter, I see your point, I disagree. Prove me wrong.

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Torah613, I admit that basic arithmetic does not qualify as limudei chol.
Not to argue, just to further the discussion... why not?
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Unread 02-20-2009, 12:06 AM   #44
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And would you argue that "limude chol", "chochmas haumois", and "chochmas chitzoinius" are all different ways to say the same thing? I would think that "chochmas chitzoinius" includes a much broader range of subjects.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 12:11 AM   #45
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KK, its probably a stretch to assume they always refer to the same thing from place to place.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 12:22 AM   #46
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Stretch? Why?
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Unread 02-20-2009, 12:45 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Can anyone please define what we mean by "limudei chol" in the context of this discussion? Perhaps Noah would, as he started it?
noahides, the letter I cited above cites 5 other reasons why one would study non torah subjects. . .

and learning those subjects in the bathroom would not really solve your objection if the problem is poluting peoples minds. . .
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Unread 02-20-2009, 01:05 AM   #48
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Torah613, I'm not saying that it's THE cause, but simply that it may be A cause, and greater taharas hamoach is certainly going to produce more eidel children than not, acc. to the peshat in Tanya.

If boys in Oholei Torah are allowed to waste time, that doesn't mean that they should learn secular studies or that it's justified for the girls to do so. It means that the teachers should get their act together.
Quote:
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Noah, you cite a letter and then proceed to make sweeping statements about education which several posters apparently disagree with. Your response is essentially to say that you know better than all of us (or the Rebbe, according to your reading, knows better than all of us). How about, instead of addressing people's posts so derisively, you use your vast knowledge of Chassidus to point out some specific quotes that support your point of view. I read the letter, I see your point, I disagree. Prove me wrong.
MTC, you misunderstood me. I took for granted that the members of this forum are familiar with the numerous letters in which the Rebbe encourages that students should not learn any secular studies. My whole objection was to the fact that girls are not given a similar program to Oholei Torah, and my proof that there should not be a distinction in this regard is Tanya perek ches. That was the point of the letter cited in the first post. I see that I gave the members here too much credit. I guess I'll know for next time.
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noahides, the letter I cited above cites 5 other reasons why one would study non torah subjects. . .
So? Stick to the topic. Show me how even one of them implies what you claim.
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and learning those subjects in the bathroom would not really solve your objection if the problem is polluting peoples minds. . .
Read it again. The Rebbe is clearly saying that studying secular topics in the bathroom does not pollute your mind. It's totally legit. (We're talking topics that don't border on kefira, of course.)
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Unread 02-20-2009, 05:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
MT, based on the way you write, let's just say that I think I've looked into it more than you, and since that you admit that you are yet to research the matter thoroughly, I think you should not form an opinion until you do so.
So- I shouldn't have an opinion on anything until I've learned all there is to know, plus some, on said topic? That would take a lifetime to do, and in the meantime, opinions are necessary for many things.
Just because I haven't researched it thoroughly, doesn't mean I haven't studied anything.

Quote:
Torah613, I admit that basic arithmetic does not qualify as limudei chol.
Why?

Quote:
Let me phrase my question differently: For boys a whole school, Oholei Torah, was set up for boys not to study limudei chol, except some bare minimum. Similar schools exist in other places in the world, though no where near enough. My question is why such a school is not accompanied by a parallel girls' school. Clearly, no one learns Tanya and takes it seriously, and cares that the minds of girls should be kept pure. And then we're all surprised that we're plagued with the matzav of vechulu veda"l.
I don't think one has to do with the other. It has to do with many things, but not learning limudei chol. Sorry....

Quote:
I'm not saying that girls should learn Torah in the same way as boys, as the Rebbe explained. But that's not a reason to pollute their minds, either.
Perhaps take a course (gasp!), and write a decent curriculum. That is, after all, the only thing you can do to help...

Quote:
I agree that wasted time is bad, but how hard did the teachers try to fill a day with a curriculum of kedusha? In fact, I don't think anyone is thinking in that direction in the first place.
When was it asked for? I believe that there is a [small] high school in CH which does exactly what you're looking for, but I was not impressed with it, nor with the resulting girls. And if it makes you feel any better, when you take seminary girls after one year [who are teaching for lack of what to do until they get engaged, at which time they will quit, and cause yet more damage to the kids' academics], and make them into English and math teachers, no real learning gets done, anways- whether the kids are boys or girls.

[quote=Torah613;151922]Would such mosdos turn out better girls? I don't know. Does OT?[/qipte]
No, OT turns out both Chassidish boys, and the opposite, who not only are or are not chassidim (depends who, just like any other place), but also are completely uneducated. Let's say I've had enough dealings with the products of that mosad to last a lifetime- and would never send a son there.

Quote:
As far as the wasted time, I fear that even many of the boys mosdos that have no LC do not fulfill that directive of the Rebbe. VAKML.
True dat.

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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Noah, you cite a letter and then proceed to make sweeping statements about education which several posters apparently disagree with. Your response is essentially to say that you know better than all of us (or the Rebbe, according to your reading, knows better than all of us). How about, instead of addressing people's posts so derisively, you use your vast knowledge of Chassidus to point out some specific quotes that support your point of view. I read the letter, I see your point, I disagree. Prove me wrong.
Indeed. I have a better idea: how about citing both perspectives?

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Originally Posted by Kookoo Kabalist View Post
And would you argue that "limude chol", "chochmas haumois", and "chochmas chitzoinius" are all different ways to say the same thing? I would think that "chochmas chitzoinius" includes a much broader range of subjects.
If they all meant the same, there would only be one term; since there are three, obviously, each one means something slightly different.

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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Torah613, I'm not saying that it's THE cause, but simply that it may be A cause, and greater taharas hamoach is certainly going to produce more eidel children than not, acc. to the peshat in Tanya.
Er- and the girls who didn't learn anything but kodesh, and yet walk around half-naked, or like they stepped off the front of a magazine? Sorry...I think we have to change the mommies before we can change the daughters. HOWEVER...since today's girls are tomorrow's mommies, we have to work with them, perhaps more so. Savta doesn't have nearly as much influence as Ima, so if today's prust mommies have tznius daughters.. [dream]

Quote:
If boys in Oholei Torah are allowed to waste time, that doesn't mean that they should learn secular studies or that it's justified for the girls to do so. It means that the teachers should get their act together.
It means that the system is messed up. Majorly messed up. So perhaps it's better to put in secular studies, if it will help un-mess-up the kids.

Quote:
MTC, you misunderstood me. I took for granted that the members of this forum are familiar with the numerous letters in which the Rebbe encourages that students should not learn any secular studies. My whole objection was to the fact that girls are not given a similar program to Oholei Torah, and my proof that there should not be a distinction in this regard is Tanya perek ches. That was the point of the letter cited in the first post. I see that I gave the members here too much credit. I guess I'll know for next time.
I'm sure all the members here appreciate the compliment. We aren't all amei ha'aretz, and some of us have studied some, but not all, the letters, but have knowledge in different areas. To each his own. Noah, could you win a case in court?
Obviously, however, you've studied everything and are a great talmid chacham, while the rest of us can only dream of such.

Quote:
Read it again. The Rebbe is clearly saying that studying secular topics in the bathroom does not pollute your mind. It's totally legit. (We're talking topics that don't border on kefira, of course.)
So secular topics in the bathroom are okay, but studying the same in school is not. I see. We're talking about topics that aren't k'fira, of course.
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Unread 02-20-2009, 06:15 AM   #50
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noah, has it occured to you that for the longest time, the entire time the rebbe was with us, there was only one such school not only in Crown heights, but in the entire lubavitch world?

do you not think that if the rebbe wanted to get rid of the limudei chol in lubavitch yeshiva, in pittsburg, and in many of the other chabad schools he would have done so? That he wouldn't have simply asked for those schools to get rid of them?

He did not.

as far as I remember, the rebbe asked that there be one such school for people who did not want to attend the regular one. he did not necesserily mean that anywhere near everyone should go to that school.

I remember reading the letters as well. they're much more mixed than you are really giving them credit for.

the rebbe praised the sciences, even calling them "the other side of the coin" to torah (don't ask me for the cite, maybe someone else can provide it. its been almost a decade since I read it in yeshiva).

he did not, however, praise wasting time, which is exactly what alot of people do in secular studies. (not to mention wasting time in school b'chlal.)
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