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Unread 02-19-2009, 03:41 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Limudei chol for girls

Where did people get the idea that chinuch for girls it’s less important to ensure that they don’t learn limudei chol? The peshat in Tanya perek ches is that the issue of secular studies being bittul Torah and the timtum of the moach of the Nefesh Ha’Elokis through secular studies are two separate problems. I think that this is a shtus godol venorioro, and with their heads full of these shtusim it’s not surprising that we have the problems that we have, Rachmana litzlan.

Le'ho'ir, where the Rebbe emphasizes that chinuch al taharas hakodesh is just as necessary for girls: Igros Kodesh, Vol. 18, p. 484.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:30 AM   #2
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Er...someone has to work. If you're going to negate limudei chol for boys, on account of bittul Torah, so be it. But someone has to get some kind of degree and get a decent job, or you can't have the minyan (or two, as the case may be) of kids that you want without depending on welfare, ch"v.

So, because the boys have bittul Torah to worry about, and are the poskim of the next generation, the girls ended up with more limudei chol. If you ask me, both should be getting it. [Whoops, now I'm a snag and contradicted the Rebbe.]
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:32 AM   #3
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Whats the problem? They can all become teachers...
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:37 AM   #4
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T613, I hope you're joking...

1) Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher, and I don't want those who aren't made for it to mess up my kids, or anyone else's.

2) There are enough teachers for chassidus and limudei kodesh to go around- we need more teachers for secular subjects, and more doctors, lawyers, lab workers, etc. If every bored housewife (or housewife who needs work) becomes a teacher, and can't do anything else, then half won't have jobs.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:38 AM   #5
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I was half joking.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:48 AM   #6
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Glad to hear it. And the other half? [I'm waiting to hear what NL will reply to my first post...'twill be an interesting argument.]
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Unread 02-19-2009, 03:25 PM   #7
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MT: Limmudei chol for a constructive, specific goal when a person is of an employable age is a separate issue. At the end of the perek the Alter Rebbe clearly says that that's legit. I'm talking about as children and young teenagers--why should girls' minds be polluted with limmudei chol? I think it's nothing but misogyny. How do you expect them to grow up with ahavas Hashem, ahavas haTorah, and ahavas Yisroel when their minds are polluted?
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Unread 02-19-2009, 03:57 PM   #8
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If you don't learn the basics at a young age, you won't have a) the foundations and b) the ability that are necessary to allow higher learning.

Why is it misogyny? If you look at it that way, then it could be misconstrued as such. But if you're pro-limudei chol, then we're not being fair to the boys.

Er....if you learn limudei chol, you can't have ahavat Hashem and ahavat haTorah?! Boys are naive, girls are polluted....oy vey.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 04:09 PM   #9
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One can learn reasoning skills just fine in the process of learning Torah.
It's misogyny because it says that it's a problem to pollute the minds of boys, not girls.
If you're pro-limmudei chol, you haven't learned Tanya perek ches.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 04:12 PM   #10
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Fine, but they won't take that as a valid high school diploma when you want to get a degree.

That I understood. I'm saying that the flip side is that the girls can do something, if need be outside the community...and the boys are stuck. From that perspective, it's the boys that suffer, and the girls who are the lucky ones.

I believe I did.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 04:49 PM   #11
ktonton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Where did people get the idea that chinuch for girls it’s less important to ensure that they don’t learn limudei chol? The peshat in Tanya perek ches is that the issue of secular studies being bittul Torah and the timtum of the moach of the Nefesh Ha’Elokis through secular studies are two separate problems. I think that this is a shtus godol venorioro, and with their heads full of these shtusim it’s not surprising that we have the problems that we have, Rachmana litzlan.

Le'ho'ir, where the Rebbe emphasizes that chinuch al taharas hakodesh is just as necessary for girls: Igros Kodesh, Vol. 18, p. 484.
[...] there is a difference between secular phisophy (of the non heretical type) (for instance, aesops fables) and the hard sciences and the like, which are necessery if one wishes to learn to make a psak. . . in perkei avos it mentions that the cycles of the stars are a "condiment" to wisdom. (because they enable you to understand the halachot about kiddush hachodesh properly, and can be useful in many other fashions.

and also, like MT said, you need to have learned these foundations when you were younger to go on and learn them when you're older.

only problem is the vast majority of people don't actualy occupy themselves with the material and therefore waste thier time instead of benefiting from it.

Last edited by ktonton; 02-19-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 05:07 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
One can learn reasoning skills just fine in the process of learning Torah.
It's misogyny because it says that it's a problem to pollute the minds of boys, not girls.
If you're pro-limmudei chol, you haven't learned Tanya perek ches.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx...5950&pgnum=161 (igros kodesh)
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Unread 02-19-2009, 05:19 PM   #13
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MT:
1. So maybe they won't have a degree! But they'll be G-d-fearing. They'll find their parnoso, which comes from Hashem. Plenty of people without college find parnoso.

2. Huh? Learning Torah is suffering?! Doing something secular is being "lucky"?!

3. So you learnt Tanya ch. 8--so explain to me how your view "fits in" there, please.

ktonton,
1. what on earth does the Rebbe have to do with it?! everyone knows that gedolei Yisroel learning secular studies are a diff. matter, and you surely know that, as you quote from the Rebbe's letter in your very next post, so it's downright disingenuous for you to imply otherwise! stick to the issue!

2. mah kesher?? do girls have to pasken dinim?! of course not! they need to be educated to have ahava veyira.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 02-19-2009 at 07:17 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 05:59 PM   #14
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read the rest of the letter. the heter is not just for gedolei yisroel...
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:17 PM   #15
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yes? I didn't see where you proved that for non-gedolei Yisroel it's legit. to learn secular philosophy. Just say that the Rebbe learnt things that are kfira. We know that for gedolei Yisroel that's legit. in order to keep da ma shetoshiv. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

as for that letter, where does it say there that it's not polluting children's and youth's--both boys AND girls--minds to teach them secular studies? See point 5 there, where the Rebbe emphasises that the permission to learn secular studies for parnoso is only to the extent that's absolutely necessary.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 02-19-2009 at 07:19 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:25 PM   #16
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Ktonton, check your post #11 for a slip of the tongue, I think another poster will thank you
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:29 PM   #17
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I think Limudei Chol is important but should be raised to Kodesh. For example, you can teach grammar with good stories and teach history showing the Yad HaShem, teach math to help you build sukkas and teach science because Mah Rabu Maasecha HaShem.All this is Torah because HKBH Histakel BOraysa UBara Alma.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
MT:
1. So maybe they won't have a degree! But they'll be G-d-fearing. They'll find their parnoso, which comes from Hashem. Plenty of people without college find parnoso.

2. Huh? Learning Torah is suffering?! Doing something secular is being "lucky"?!

3. So you learnt Tanya ch. 8--so explain to me how your view "fits in" there, please.

ktonton,
1. speaking of spiritual pollution, please don't pollute this site with that totally unreliable site of tuma;

2. what on earth does the Rebbe have to do with it?! everyone knows that gedolei Yisroel learning secular studies are a diff. matter, and you surely know that, as you quote from the Rebbe's letter in your very next post, so it's downright disingenuous for you to imply otherwise! stick to the issue!

3. mah kesher?? do girls have to pasken dinim?! of course not! they need to be educated to have ahava veyira.
Re me:
1) Lo somchim al hanes. [Gam k'shekoreh b'derech hateva.]

2) No, it's not suffering, l'hefech. But not being able to manage on your own can cause suffering. Torah im derech eretz....

3) Read the last line of the perek over again, and it fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
yes? I didn't see where you proved that for non-gedolei Yisroel it's legit. to learn secular philosophy. And where's your apology for polluting this site with that filthy tuma and kfira site, and the divrei bizoyon v'hisnagdus on that very page? Just say that the Rebbe learnt things that are kfira. We know that for gedolei Yisroel that's legit. in order to keep da ma shetoshiv. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

as for that letter, where does it say there that it's not polluting children's and youth's--both boys AND girls--minds to teach them secular studies? See point 5 there, where the Rebbe emphasises that the permission to learn secular studies for parnoso is only to the extent that's absolutely necessary.
Nowadays, everyone has to da mah shetashiv....

Now, what's "absolutely necessary"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Ktonton, check your post #11 for a slip of the tongue, I think another poster will thank you
Thanks, MTC. I noticed....
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
One can learn reasoning skills just fine in the process of learning Torah.
I agree 100% that you can learn logic as well as if not better through Torah than through limudei chol, and that the yeshiva/seminary system does a reasonably good job of imparting those skills.

Quote:
in perkei avos it mentions that the cycles of the stars are a "condiment" to wisdom.
This is not only if a person needs to make a psak; it could also be simply for learning Torah l'shma (as kiddush hachodesh is not really practical these days, it makes a good example). To learn kiddush hachodesh to the point of understanding halachah l'maaseh, a person needs some understanding of trigonometry and algebra to make the calculations, some understanding of basic physics and mechanics (what equipment is needed to take these measurements), and a basic understanding of technical writing to be able to write down one's calculations in a coherent fashion. Geography and astronomy are also helpful.

Nothing in that list is in any way kfirah, and it is entirely possible to learn all of those subjects from a teacher with Yiras Shamayim, in a setting that encourages good midos, and in a curriculum that stresses the primacy of Torah.

The attitude that these subjects should be avoided until absolutely neccesary for parnosa means that a G-d fearing Jew can never be a doctor l'chatchila ch'v. By the time parnosa is an issue, its too late to go to medical school. And if there is money to support the school education, there will be someone to say: "see parnosa isn't an issue yet, go learn in kollel."
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Unread 02-19-2009, 06:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
I agree 100% that you can learn logic as well as if not better through Torah than through limudei chol, and that the yeshiva/seminary system does a reasonably good job of imparting those skills.
Not good enough, unfortunately....why do the girls usually beat the guys at trig?

Quote:
his is not only if a person needs to make a psak; it could also be simply for learning Torah l'shma (as kiddush hachodesh is not really practical these days, it makes a good example). To learn kiddush hachodesh to the point of understanding halachah l'maaseh, a person needs some understanding of trigonometry and algebra to make the calculations, some understanding of basic physics and mechanics (what equipment is needed to take these measurements), and a basic understanding of technical writing to be able to write down one's calculations in a coherent fashion. Geography and astronomy are also helpful.

Nothing in that list is in any way kfirah, and it is entirely possible to learn all of those subjects from a teacher with Yiras Shamayim, in a setting that encourages good midos, and in a curriculum that stresses the primacy of Torah.
Thank you.

Quote:
The attitude that these subjects should be avoided until absolutely neccesary for parnosa means that a G-d fearing Jew can never be a doctor l'chatchila ch'v. By the time parnosa is an issue, its too late to go to medical school. And if there is money to support the school education, there will be someone to say: "see parnosa isn't an issue yet, go learn in kollel."
Indeed. And then what shall we do when we insist that frum doctors are better? And when we want frum women to check our daughters, instead of some strange goyishe man? And when we want a frum therapist or counselor who understands our hashkafa, and won't tell us to do something against Torah? And when the guy in front of us will only put on tefillin if you can prove to him xyz, which yeshiva never taught? Nunu...someone has to be the "korban".
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:02 PM   #21
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I will suggest a diyuk in the Alte Rebbe's words:

Quote:
וכן העוסק בחכמות אומות העולם בכלל דברים בטלים יחשב לענין עון ביטול תורה, כמו שכתוב בהלכות תלמוד תורה
The Alte Rebbe uses the word עוסק here and is referring to one who does not have a use for this knowledge. In other words, we're talking about someone who spends his or her spare time on this stuff (reading physics books half an hour before bed, etc). This is a person who "toils" in it the way some people toil in Yankees baseball, not someone who learns it as part of a general education.

There is a place for learning secular subjects as a "useful tool" or as a help to understand Torah; this isn't "toiling" in it as much as just gaining background. We teach kids math because its useful to know math in pretty much any profession. We teach kids English for the same reason. Its not neccesary to discuss too many specifics here; the general goal of the secular school system is to produce well rounded adults with a reasonable amount of general knowledge. Our schools should have the same goal, along with the added goal of instilling ahavas haTorah, ahavas yisroel and yiras shamayim.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:07 PM   #22
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MTC, you weren't born Chabad, were you? Or you were, and your parents were BT. One of the two...

Quote:
אלא א"כ עושה אותן קרדום לחתוך בהן דהיינו כדי להתפרנס מהן בריוח לעבוד ה' או שיודע להשתמש בהן לעבודת ה' או לתורתו וזהו טעמו של הרמב"ם ורמב"ן ז"ל וסיעתן שעסקו בהן
And that quote is self-explanatory.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:22 PM   #23
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I think Limudei Chol is important but should be raised to Kodesh. For example, you can teach grammar with good stories and teach history showing the Yad HaShem, teach math to help you build sukkas and teach science because Mah Rabu Maasecha HaShem.All this is Torah because HKBH Histakel BOraysa UBara Alma.
I happen to strongly agree with this.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:25 PM   #24
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Why? She has a point, though I wouldn't do it exactly as she put it.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 07:29 PM   #25
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Why? She has a point, though I wouldn't do it exactly as she put it.
that kind of thing is exactly why I want to teach limudei chol in a jewish school.
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