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Unread 06-28-2009, 08:34 PM   #51
Fesoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
b/c is not a need
I mean that is kosher, but not chassidishe
secular might be kosher, but is definetly not chassidishe
Do you have a definition for chassideishe?
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Unread 06-28-2009, 08:45 PM   #52
chossidnistar
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Do you have a definition for chassideishe?
lifnim mishurat hadin or beyond the letter of the law
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Unread 06-28-2009, 09:34 PM   #53
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lifnim mishurat hadin or beyond the letter of the law
A Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, computer programmer, etc. can all be chassidish then, and all have learned secular studies. My point is that

Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
secular might be kosher, but is definetly not chassidishe
your statement doesn't ring true. And what about the Rebbe learning in the Sorbonne University?

I agree about lifnim mishurat hadin but not about secular.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:08 PM   #54
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And therefore what? We should all learn from his example and go to university???
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:32 PM   #55
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How about learning from his example that there are circumstances when going to University (and doing the work neccesary to get there) is appropriate.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:37 PM   #56
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How about seeing what he actually wrote in the sicha about going to college (or many other letters), instead doing guesswork what to learn "from his example"?

But these are the arguments that go nowhere: הרוצה לטעות - יטעה.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:44 PM   #57
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That I agree with, but the sichos and letters on the subject do not contradict the notion that there are circumstances when it is appropriate to go.

I agree that the Rebbe set forth the klal that college is not the first choice for a bochur or young woman.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 10:54 PM   #58
Torah613
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And not the second choice either. Can you show me a clear documented example (like a written letter, or authentic reliable account) where the Rebbe said it is appropiate to go (- not a case of someone who began and the Rebbe said to finish because of the time spent, which usually was (but may not be limited to) with Balei Tshuvah)?

Every klal has a yotze min haklal. The rule is - that it is not appropiate. The exceptions - to the extent that they exist - are not the discussion here. Tanya also describes exceptions, that do not as a rule apply to most of us.

If discussing the policy that the Rebbe set up, going to college is chazir treif (even though there may be exceptions).

Interesting how a discussion about what our schools should ideally look like - has evolved (or been diverted?) into a discussion about going to college.

All this has been discussed in many threads, I do not see the point in covering old ground again.

As an aside: This permissive attitude, which has seeped into our circles the last decade or 2, has cost many korbonos - בכלל ובפרט. Who takes the achrayis for this - I don't know...
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Unread 06-28-2009, 11:28 PM   #59
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The point was made that chasidish meant no secular. I questioned that with some examples including the Rebbe going to the Sorbonne. The point was to show that chasidish isn't the narrow definition that some believe. It still means going beyond the letter of the law. It still means following the Rebbe's directives. What about professionals who go beyond the letter of the law? Are they not chassidish? Was Yosef HaTzadik not chassidish because he wasn't a shepherd? This is not a plea for everyone to go to college. It is a point about seeing something beyond the "one narrow path" definition that is often presented.
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Unread 06-28-2009, 11:32 PM   #60
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...the Rebbe's narrow path...especially concerning college, which is an unfortunate, bad example on your part...
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Unread 06-29-2009, 10:01 AM   #61
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...the Rebbe's narrow path...especially concerning college, which is an unfortunate, bad example on your part...
I am not saying the Rebbe's path is narrow, on the contrary. The Rebbe paved a Derech HaMelech that has many lanes. They all go towards the Palace of the King. Look at all the different areas of technology that are being used to make a dirah lo Yisborech b'tachtonim.
There are fast lanes, hov lanes and service lanes. Some lanes are safer than others and not all vehicles can handle those lanes. They are there, nevertheless, and the Rebbe address each of these.
To bring the metaphor to our thread, there are lanes where bachurim go to Yeshiva with a secular program and there are lanes where they do not.
There are lanes where a younger man sits in kollel before going out on shlichus, and there are lanes where he goes to college to get a parnosso to support his family and the shluchim.
Not everybody is going to enter the Beis HaMikdash through the same gate.
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Unread 06-29-2009, 10:05 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fesoy View Post
The point was made that chasidish meant no secular. I questioned that with some examples including the Rebbe going to the Sorbonne. The point was to show that chasidish isn't the narrow definition that some believe. It still means going beyond the letter of the law. It still means following the Rebbe's directives. What about professionals who go beyond the letter of the law? Are they not chassidish? Was Yosef HaTzadik not chassidish because he wasn't a shepherd? This is not a plea for everyone to go to college. It is a point about seeing something beyond the "one narrow path" definition that is often presented.
limudei hol in schools is completely different issue than going to college
I think that the idea of limudei hol, in these schools is not to prepare talmidim for college.Ortherwise it becomes a churban
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Unread 06-29-2009, 10:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
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I am not saying the Rebbe's path is narrow, on the contrary. The Rebbe paved a Derech HaMelech that has many lanes. They all go towards the Palace of the King. Look at all the different areas of technology that are being used to make a dirah lo Yisborech b'tachtonim.
There are fast lanes, hov lanes and service lanes. Some lanes are safer than others and not all vehicles can handle those lanes. They are there, nevertheless, and the Rebbe address each of these.
To bring the metaphor to our thread, there are lanes where bachurim go to Yeshiva with a secular program and there are lanes where they do not.
There are lanes where a younger man sits in kollel before going out on shlichus, and there are lanes where he goes to college to get a parnosso to support his family and the shluchim.
Not everybody is going to enter the Beis HaMikdash through the same gate.
Apparently, there are lanes where you ignore what the Rebbe says, and do whatever you feel like doing.
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Unread 06-29-2009, 11:01 AM   #64
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I am not saying the Rebbe's path is narrow, on the contrary.
Actually, as far as college is concerned, I am saying it is, as explained in the sichos.

In my view, "narrow" is not always a flaw.
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Unread 06-29-2009, 11:43 AM   #65
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For those interested, some threads were these issues were discussed:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=10231 (not in depth).
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=10240
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=10204
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=6999
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=5538
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Unread 12-18-2009, 01:07 PM   #66
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What about Baalei Tshuvos who were educated in the secular world for 20 years, for example, and then went to a BT Yeshiva. What about them continuing their secular studies? After all, very, very few are successful in limudei koidesh as their loshon koidesh skills are very limited.
What would you advise to that based on the Rebbe's directives?
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Unread 12-18-2009, 01:21 PM   #67
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It's a question for one's personal asei lecho Rav.
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Unread 12-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #68
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and choose the Rav very carefully
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