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Unread 12-16-2009, 03:59 AM   #351
emes m'eretz
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By the way, thanks for all your comments.

I guess it boils down to how people want to interpret the Rebbe's guidelines.

I think that a major theme (of the "right wingers") throughout this thread was that college is a great danger.

And a major theme (of the "left wingers") was that the Rebbe was talking in general, but that there can be exceptions.

And is it a good idea for someone to assume the awesome responsiblity of telling another person that it's ok to go into a dangerous place?

And then comes the issue (which you raised) about whether our institutions should offer courses etc. to assist in obtaining employment.

So what to do?

I think the best answer here is that the Eibeshter should return the Rebbe to us, so that he can answer everyone.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 09:13 AM   #352
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The problem is when the exceptions become the rule - in the name of the Rebbe.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 11:05 AM   #353
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The author quotes the Bureau of Labor Statistics that many of the largest areas of future job growth in the American economy are in occupations requiring little skill, not even a two-year post-secondary credential ...
Like I said above, how much do those jobs pay? One of the largest areas of job growth in the US right now is working as a checker at WalMart.

Yidden in the modern US need good jobs to pay for big cars, big houses and big tuition bills. It is very very expensive to have a family - but B"H our people have a history of success in the business world. There is a disproportionate number of Jewish doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, etc. because we as a people value education, academic achievement and hard work.

Those who can make a living without going to college, good for them. I see a large number of young people either feeling like they have no option but shlichus or else getting low level jobs because they have no employable skills. The fact that the largest growth area for jobs right now is working the register at Target does not make me feel better about their chances.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 06:38 PM   #354
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And the disasterous influence on those who disregard the Rebbe's directive, and yet the mainstreaming of that very option - does not make me feel good about the chances of the coming generation yiras shomayim wise, chassidish wise, and frum wise.
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Unread 12-16-2009, 06:51 PM   #355
Avrami87
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
Like I said above, how much do those jobs pay? One of the largest areas of job growth in the US right now is working as a checker at WalMart.

Yidden in the modern US need good jobs to pay for big cars, big houses and big tuition bills. It is very very expensive to have a family - but B"H our people have a history of success in the business world. There is a disproportionate number of Jewish doctors, engineers, lawyers, accountants, etc. because we as a people value education, academic achievement and hard work.

Those who can make a living without going to college, good for them. I see a large number of young people either feeling like they have no option but shlichus or else getting low level jobs because they have no employable skills. The fact that the largest growth area for jobs right now is working the register at Target does not make me feel better about their chances.

It says all this in pirkie avos perek 6 mishna 4 "Kach hi darca shel torah etc.."
I heard from someone in shul recently.
"Making ends meet for a frum family nowadays is a joke"
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Unread 12-17-2009, 12:09 AM   #356
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I think there's a reality here, especially in the US: Without a college degree you (usually) have access to relatively low income jobs. The situation has become even harder during the last years: You will need a Masters or MBA to stay competitive.

I think the issue here is that, today, not to go to college, requires a certain level of Messirus Nefesh for Yiddishkeit. Regardless if you will use the skills learned during 4 years in college or not, college environment is very bad.

First off, you will have the social issue. It's a relatively friendly environment and you will eventually socialize with people you might not supposed to be too friendly with. You will be there four years! You'll compromise a lot in other things as well. If you have a big exam on Monday, you'll be very tempted to study on Shabbos something that is not compatible with the spirit of Shabbos (this is very small example and I've seen it happen).

Granted. If you're married, it could be easier. But you'll need a lot of financial aid.

Second of all, you have the issue of the subject matters you learn. If you don't learn Chassidus, then this is not really an issue. But when you learn Tanya, it should bother you a little bit. The truth is that in college they teach you a lot of things that are plain waste of time and I'm sure they'll lead to Timtum Ho'Leiv. Things that are not directly related to skills that will help you learn a Parnosoh.

Again, I think that this issue requires Messirus Nefesh. Maybe you'll have to learn to run a business on the job and learn English and get writing skills through self-study (there're plenty of books on the market today).

Now, if you feel you are cut out to be a Sheliach or work as a rabbi somewhere, that's great and beautiful!

Finally, many people has made a lot of money with skills that don't take too long to learn and you don't have to necessarily go to college to acquire them: computer programming, air conditioning technician, electrician, plombing, metal working technician, real estate agent, etc.

I think the secret here is to work for someone for two or three years and then to establish your own private company. If you're good, you'll make good money.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 12:52 AM   #357
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Graduate school is more focused on what you want to learn, and not wasting time with the classes which are not important.

Regarding the miserus nefesh you discuss it says it in pirkie avos.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 01:04 AM   #358
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It looks that for an American FFB Lub, if they don't have a millionaire father or father in law,the only option is a shlichus job
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Unread 12-17-2009, 01:14 AM   #359
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Then one has to deal with the nepotism and bureaucracy.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 01:23 AM   #360
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Most problably someone is going to choose to work at any shlichus position, if the other option would be working at Target/Wall Mart. Just a couple of Farbrengens and a little connection will do the job
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Unread 12-17-2009, 07:18 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raf1988 View Post
I think there's a reality here, especially in the US: Without a college degree you (usually) have access to relatively low income jobs. The situation has become even harder during the last years: You will need a Masters or MBA to stay competitive.

I think the issue here is that, today, not to go to college, requires a certain level of Messirus Nefesh for Yiddishkeit. Regardless if you will use the skills learned during 4 years in college or not, college environment is very bad.

First off, you will have the social issue. It's a relatively friendly environment and you will eventually socialize with people you might not supposed to be too friendly with. You will be there four years! You'll compromise a lot in other things as well. If you have a big exam on Monday, you'll be very tempted to study on Shabbos something that is not compatible with the spirit of Shabbos (this is very small example and I've seen it happen).

Granted. If you're married, it could be easier. But you'll need a lot of financial aid.

Second of all, you have the issue of the subject matters you learn. If you don't learn Chassidus, then this is not really an issue. But when you learn Tanya, it should bother you a little bit. The truth is that in college they teach you a lot of things that are plain waste of time and I'm sure they'll lead to Timtum Ho'Leiv. Things that are not directly related to skills that will help you learn a Parnosoh.

Again, I think that this issue requires Messirus Nefesh. Maybe you'll have to learn to run a business on the job and learn English and get writing skills through self-study (there're plenty of books on the market today).

Now, if you feel you are cut out to be a Sheliach or work as a rabbi somewhere, that's great and beautiful!

Finally, many people has made a lot of money with skills that don't take too long to learn and you don't have to necessarily go to college to acquire them: computer programming, air conditioning technician, electrician, plombing, metal working technician, real estate agent, etc.

I think the secret here is to work for someone for two or three years and then to establish your own private company. If you're good, you'll make good money.
Very good post. The brother of my Mashpia, who is also Chabad, studied medicine and is very well known doctor here and he told me almost the same thing that is in this post.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 12:37 PM   #362
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Quote:
The truth is that in college they teach you a lot of things that are plain waste of time and I'm sure they'll lead to Timtum Ho'Leiv.
I think you mean timtum ha'moiach, as per Tanya perek ches.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 02:00 PM   #363
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And the disasterous influence on those who disregard the Rebbe's directive, and yet the mainstreaming of that very option - does not make me feel good about the chances of the coming generation yiras shomayim wise, chassidish wise, and frum wise.
I see the Rebbe's directive as going against the dangers of college, not the idea of secular education. We have to find ways to heed the Rebbe's warnings and still give bochurim a strong chance. That means frum schools like YU (even if you think YU needs to be improved, the idea is there). That means providing a way for those individuals who do choose to go to college to spend their non-class time in a good environment. And that means giving guidance to the whole generation, even those not savvy enough to start a business, on how to support a family - b'gashmius and b'ruchnius.

Quote:
I think the secret here is to work for someone for two or three years and then to establish your own private company. If you're good, you'll make good money.
Its a good idea and its what I did. But #1, you need to get hired for that first job, which in my case required a degree to even get licensed. #2, you need to keep in mind that 2/3 of startup companies fail. Its not as easy as it sounds and its not for everyone. Besides that, a lot of industries (take the pharmaceutical industry as an example) are not accesible to small start-ups without millions of dollars in capital. Someone with a chush for bio-chemistry is basically out of luck by this advise.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 09:37 PM   #364
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sorry, i don't have patience now to read tons of pages of this thread. from the last page it's more the env't of college and questionable material that is the problem, right? so what about online Jewish schools, or correspondence degree programs where the courses available have no questionable content (such as comparitive religions, etc. ) and the courses are usually very relevant to the study track. would that be okay, or is that not good too?
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Unread 12-17-2009, 10:10 PM   #365
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If the only material studied is needed for a clearly-defined parnoso, and there is nothing at all objectionable about it, and the person has studied in Yeshiva or the like for a solid amount of time, I don't see the problem. As the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya perek ches, studying secular studies is allowed "kdei lehisparnes meihem berevach laavod Hashem."
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Unread 12-17-2009, 10:21 PM   #366
raf1988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
I see the Rebbe's directive as going against the dangers of college, not the idea of secular education. We have to find ways to heed the Rebbe's warnings and still give bochurim a strong chance. That means frum schools like YU (even if you think YU needs to be improved, the idea is there). That means providing a way for those individuals who do choose to go to college to spend their non-class time in a good environment. And that means giving guidance to the whole generation, even those not savvy enough to start a business, on how to support a family - b'gashmius and b'ruchnius..


I’m not so sure that the Rebbe’s directive doesn’t go against secular education itself . Please, read the following quote from one of the letters from the Rebbe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzemach View Post
From a Letter of the Rebbe, reprinted in "Der Rebbe's Kinder" page 455:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzemach View Post

(5) One of the serious dangers that are inherent in college education has to do with its influence on the thought process of the college student. The college student is trained to think in secular terms and categories. In all courses (except theology) G-d is banished from the classroom. This often leads to the tendency of leaving G-d out of the Torah study as well. When, and if, the college student returns to the Gemoro, he is likely to approach it with the same mental process. He may still admire the wisdom of the Torah, and may still derive pleasure from its study, but he will not be able to recapture the sense of awe and holiness with which he had once approached G-d's Torah. Hence if he had picked up some apparent discrepancies between secular science and the Torah, he is inclined to solve the difficulty by simply taking the words of the Torah or of ChaZaL out of their meaning in order to harmonize them with the college text-books, or even those used in High Schools or public schools. Unfortunately, this tendency has made inroads even among Talmidei Kolelim, who sit and study Torah at great personal "sacrifice," yet whose Hashkofo had been contaminated by the secular Hashkofo of the college.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
It looks that for an American FFB Lub, if they don't have a millionaire father or father in law,the only option is a shlichus job


Chossidnistar: Are you trying to say that every “FFB Lub” that doesn’t have a millionaire father or father in law and didn’t go in Shlichus was unable to bring Parnoso to his family?

I think it all depends on the desire of the person to solve his Parnosoh problem. I don’t think the Rebbe didn’t know that many of his Chassidim would not go to Shlichus. Now, if you want to stay in your “comfortable zone” then, yes, you’ll need a millionaire father or father in law.
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Unread 12-17-2009, 11:37 PM   #367
chossidnistar
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Originally Posted by raf1988 View Post

I’m not so sure that the Rebbe’s directive doesn’t go against secular education itself . Please, read the following quote from one of the letters from the Rebbe.





Chossidnistar: Are you trying to say that every “FFB Lub” that doesn’t have a millionaire father or father in law and didn’t go in Shlichus was unable to bring Parnoso to his family?

I think it all depends on the desire of the person to solve his Parnosoh problem. I don’t think the Rebbe didn’t know that many of his Chassidim would not go to Shlichus. Now, if you want to stay in your “comfortable zone” then, yes, you’ll need a millionaire father or father in law.
i meant it for post 360

Btw, remember one HS saying : "if you are not a shliach, you are nothing, unless you become millionaire"
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Unread 12-18-2009, 12:53 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
i meant it for post 360

Btw, remember one HS saying : "if you are not a shliach, you are nothing, unless you become millionaire"
What's HS?
Well, every Jew is a Sheliach. The Rebbe respected everybody.
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