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Unread 05-05-2005, 02:21 PM   #1
soonfrum
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I hope some of you can help with this problem. im 16, and I have a bit of dillema. My rabbi is the chabad-shaliach. I decided that when Im independed i will leave this secular school for yeshiva. So here is the problem. I returned to Judaism together with my brother. My brother is elder than me, and he has already been in a yeshiva. The first one he tried was a chabad yeshiva. He didnt like it, at all, and he now thinks that it is like the follower of Shabbetai Tzvi (about the ppl who think the rebbe was moshiach). Now he is in a litvish yeshiva in Jerusalem, and he becamed so antichabad. He says that the chabad-shaliach here, is really not representing what chabad is, cos if he would everybody would be frightened. (I think he is referring to the fact, that the shaliach doesnt believe the rebbe was moshiach) So he warned me against Chabad, and told me that it would a better idea to stay away from them. He really said this in a very aggressive way. So I think he believes it quiete clear. However I feel that the chabad-shaliach over here showed me some really positive things in chabad, and I really like it. I also share most of their oppinions, and I also agree with the Rebbe in many questions (about Israel and sending shlichim). But I don't believe he is moshiach.
So I am standing here right in between. If I choose a chabad-yeshiva my brother would get crazy on me (he is very antichabad). So I don't really know what to do. Maan getting into yiddishkeit made me discover the hatred there is between the litvish world and the chabad world.
I don't wanna talk to the shaliach about this, cos he knows him very well and it will just end up in arguments, I know what im talking about.
So I hope some of you could help me with this situation.
Btw. do u know some yeshivot, where people dont claim the Rebbe was moshiach, but is still chabad. It seems that it was a moshechistic yeshiva he went to.

Last edited by soonfrum; 05-05-2005 at 02:24 PM.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 02:57 PM   #2
Daniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonfrum
Btw. do u know some yeshivot, where people dont claim the Rebbe was moshiach, but is still chabad. It seems that it was a moshechistic yeshiva he went to.
How about any non-meshichist yeshiva?

According to halacha, if you want to go somewhere (like a yeshiva) to learn but your father doesn't want you to go there, you are allowed to go there anyway and ignore what your father says. Kal vachomer, if this applies to your father, certainly it applies with regard to your brother.

Most of the Litvish world isn't all that strongly anti-Chabad any more. I know a prominent Litvak rabbi personally, and he isn't anti-Chabad at all. And I know many Chabad people who aren't anti-Litvish either.

Tell your brother to find a positive way to get rid of his anger, instead of spreading hatred about his fellow Jews. Let him target Jews for J*sus instead.

I don't believe the Rebbe is moshiach either. Neither do many other people who are Chabadniks (I'm a very tiny little bit Chabad-affiliated).

Go to a *normal* Chabad yeshiva (i.e. a non-meshichist one) and see whether you like it. I think you will.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 03:33 PM   #3
hope2beAbochur
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soonfrum, i had the same problem but without the part about the brother, my chabad mashpia/mentor, is not a mishechist at all so i followed his lead and i applied to morristown yeshiva, which isn't involved in the politics of lubavitch, as far as i know.

i have also heard great things about the teachers and classes in this yeshiva i am lead to believe they are very good, if you apply maybe i will see you there

their website is: http://tiferesonline.com/

p.s (i dunno if it is loshen horah but) what yeshiva did your brother go to??
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Unread 05-05-2005, 04:37 PM   #4
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Okay but the thing is that I rather dont wanna go United States. And I also need a place for a baal teshuva, since I dont know how to read the scriptures, but I can the alphabet.
I can't go b4 im 18 though it is halacha, that i can decide on my own. also other ppls i spoke to, who i met online, speaks a lot bad about chabad. I don't know, if u know the website called frumteens (allmost scared me away from chabad). another problem i have is, that im standing 100% alone in this situation, and i expect no financial support from my parents, so it has to be a cheap one.
My bro told me that, the reason why chabad dont appoint a new rebbe is, cos they believe the rebbe was moshaich, and that he will soon come back.

ps. the first chabad-yeshiva my bro went to was "Mayenot" then he is in "Or Someach".

I hope its not lashon hara. I dont know these laws well so i trust u. I almost believed that saying something bad about chabad, was not lashon hara. (judging the way som litvish spoke about chabad)
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Unread 05-05-2005, 04:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonfrum
My rabbi is the chabad-shaliach. I decided that when Im independed i will leave this secular school for yeshiva.
I'm assuming youre rabbi knows of youre decision. Which yeshiva did he suggest? If youre brother doesnt have a problem with this particular rabbi he shouldnt have a problem with the yeshiva he sends you to either.
I happen to agree though that Morristown is a good idea.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 04:57 PM   #6
Aharon Benjamin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
How about any non-meshichist yeshiva?

According to halacha, if you want to go somewhere (like a yeshiva) to learn but your father doesn't want you to go there, you are allowed to go there anyway and ignore what your father says. Kal vachomer, if this applies to your father, certainly it applies with regard to your brother.
Hello Daniel, this halacha (that the son may contradict the will of his father) that we learn out from this week's parsha (Kedoshim), actually only applies if the father tells his son to do somthing in contradiction to Torah.

What halacha of the Torah is this boy's father telling him to violate, ch'v?

BTW there is also a clear halacha in the Laws of the Foundation of the Torah ch.10 (Rambam) that all must obey a Navi Emes - a True Prophet - which the Rebbe no doubt is. Therefore it would seem to me in my humble opinion, that this boy would be well advised to specifically go to a Meshichist yeshiva, if he would care to receive the best possible education.

By the way, your definition of 'normal' is very misleading. I have noticed that people tend to define as 'normal' whereever they personally happen to be holding...this has very little to do with objective truth.

I would like to request the posters on this thread to please to refrain from speaking any lashon hara against the Meshichistim ch'v, who in truth are the most sincerely dedicated soldiers of the Rebbe.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 05:08 PM   #7
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AB, you obviously have no idea what in the world you're talking about. Go look up either Hilchos Talmud Torah or Kibud Av, and you will see the halacha Daniel quotes very clearly indeed.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 05:17 PM   #8
Aharon Benjamin
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LD what exactly are you disagreeing with?
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Unread 05-05-2005, 05:32 PM   #9
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I dont believe a dead man can be moshiach. Thats more like ******ianity. But if u happen to believe it, and if u can find a Jewish source for that believe - find with me, but I personally don't.

Wow how did the Rebbe became a prophet?

I was told by the sjaliach that it is only some young rebellious children, who set up all the signs by the highway in Israel. And that its mainly because they want attention.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 06:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonfrum
But if u happen to believe it, and if u can find a Jewish source for that believe - find with me, but I personally don't.
if theres a source thats its possible then you have no problem if someone else believes. what if theres a source that its not just posssible but that it happens to be the fact? I dont think you should have ANY opinion untill you know more from all the sources (i hope that doesnt sound too sharp)
btw the rambam writes that the whole reason Hashem let ****ianity go so far w/ so many believers (goyim) is so that when the REAL Moshiach comes it''ll be easier for them to accept him! so if its similiar all the better!!!
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Unread 05-05-2005, 06:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonfrum
Okay but the thing is that I rather dont wanna go United States. And I also need a place for a baal teshuva, since I dont know how to read the scriptures, but I can the alphabet.
I can't go b4 im 18 though it is halacha, that i can decide on my own. also other ppls i spoke to, who i met online, speaks a lot bad about chabad. I don't know, if u know the website called frumteens (allmost scared me away from chabad). another problem i have is, that im standing 100% alone in this situation, and i expect no financial support from my parents, so it has to be a cheap one.
My bro told me that, the reason why chabad dont appoint a new rebbe is, cos they believe the rebbe was moshaich, and that he will soon come back.
it is no problem at all that you can't read the scriptures, on the application form to morristown it asks the question "can you read hebrew??" this is obviously indicating that they have programs for people who can't and morristown is baal teshuva orientated from what i have been told.

about the fanancial support, if you don't have the money i am sure that no yeshiva would turn you away, if you give them a small donation at least and even if this isn't possible they will still let you in.

about the Rebbe being moshiach and the appointment of a new Rebbe, from what i have learned the 7th generation will be the generation of moshiach and the Rebbe is the 7th generation. to appoint a new Rebbe would be contradictory to chabad chassidus and this belief that moshiach is coming imminently.

p.s. the furm teens website doesn't give anywhere near an accurate description of anything relating to lubavitch.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 06:47 PM   #12
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if theres a source thats its possible then you have no problem if someone else believes. what if theres a source that its not just posssible but that it happens to be the fact? I dont think you should have ANY opinion untill you know more from all the sources (i hope that doesnt sound too sharp)
What is the source that says he was Moshiach? In Tenach or Talmud? Yes I wrote that I would never believe in a dead man being moshiach. btw. there were many others who also where great like the Rebbe. The Rebbe was just the latest one, so I believe that believing that he was moshiach will cease soon, when a new great rabbi will come. The day where everybody will have no doubts at all, thats the day i will believe in him.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 06:55 PM   #13
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oh okay, but if it is in America in cant go. the place has to be in either israel or europe.
Hmmm never heard that the 7 generation should be the generation of moshaich. But what if it is not? What if moshiach does not come in our generation? Then everything is false? But why dont they have a new leader, i can't understand that. Every group needs a leader to guide them.
Does that mean that you can join a yeshiva for free?
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Unread 05-05-2005, 07:04 PM   #14
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Hey everybody, remember that the identity of Moshiach is not as important as keeping Torah and Mitzvos, especially Ahavas Yisroel. If a guy doesn't want, then shut it.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 08:01 PM   #15
maspik!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavDavka
If a guy doesn't want, then shut it.
look, I agree w/ u 100%, but if a guy comes unto a site like this what do you expect....
confused: I think the 2 yrs u have 'till youre able to go to yeshiva should be spent learning as much as possible not worrying wich yeshiva to go to
you also dont have a proper understanding of what a Rebbe is for that u have to learn chassidus. have you heard of tanya?
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Unread 05-05-2005, 08:25 PM   #16
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hmm... only in europe and israel, my knowledge is very limited and i can only think of mishichist yeshivos in europe, but what about toras emes in yerushalayim (i am not sure about it's political stance) and kfar chabad, there must be a yeshiva there to suit your needs..

good luck with whatever you choose, but surely you must be able to get better guidance than what can be offered on this site, no offence to anyone here, but we don't know your exact situation and we can sit down with you and have a 1-on-1 chat.
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Unread 05-05-2005, 08:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavDavka
If a guy doesn't want, then shut it.
doesn't want what??
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Unread 05-05-2005, 08:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
BTW there is also a clear halacha in the Laws of the Foundation of the Torah ch.10 (Rambam) that all must obey a Navi Emes - a True Prophet - which the Rebbe no doubt is. Therefore it would seem to me in my humble opinion, that this boy would be well advised to specifically go to a Meshichist yeshiva, if he would care to receive the best possible education.
Why - did this "novi emes" say all have to go to a M't yeshiva? If not, what does this (and most of the ensuing discussion) have to do with the original "question"?
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Unread 05-06-2005, 04:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soonfrum
I dont believe a dead man can be moshiach. Thats more like ******ianity. But if u happen to believe it, and if u can find a Jewish source for that believe - find with me, but I personally don't.
There happen to be many people who believe that the Rebbe zal zein guzunt is still (and eternally alive) - I also happen to be one of them.
Quote:
Wow how did the Rebbe became a prophet?
sf if you read the Rambam's Laws of the Foundation of the Torah chs. 7-10 you will see that belief in people becoming prophets is one of the foundations of Judaism. The Rebbe stated clearly on Shoftim of 5751 that he and all of the Rebbeiim before him were all prophets (on a level similar to Moshe Rabbeinu, which is a separate category from other prophets in general as the Rambam explains there)
Quote:
I was told by the sjaliach that it is only some young rebellious children, who set up all the signs by the highway in Israel. And that its mainly because they want attention.
Maybe you should go to Israel so you can judge for yourself. I personally became a Chabadnik in the most Meshichist yeshiva in Israel (and the world) - the holy city of Tzfat.

Last edited by Aharon Benjamin; 05-06-2005 at 04:22 AM.
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Unread 05-06-2005, 05:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
Hello Daniel, this halacha (that the son may contradict the will of his father) that we learn out from this week's parsha (Kedoshim), actually only applies if the father tells his son to do somthing in contradiction to Torah.

What halacha of the Torah is this boy's father telling him to violate, ch'v?

BTW there is also a clear halacha in the Laws of the Foundation of the Torah ch.10 (Rambam) that all must obey a Navi Emes - a True Prophet - which the Rebbe no doubt is. Therefore it would seem to me in my humble opinion, that this boy would be well advised to specifically go to a Meshichist yeshiva, if he would care to receive the best possible education.

By the way, your definition of 'normal' is very misleading. I have noticed that people tend to define as 'normal' whereever they personally happen to be holding...this has very little to do with objective truth.

I would like to request the posters on this thread to please to refrain from speaking any lashon hara against the Meshichistim ch'v, who in truth are the most sincerely dedicated soldiers of the Rebbe.
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 143:12
If you want to go to a certain place to study Torah because there you will accomplish more than you will here, and your father disapproves for some reason, you do not have to listen to your father, for learning Torah is greater than the mitzvah of kibuv av ve'eim.


And, yes, I do oppose the meshichist movement. Your post is already telling us why: the are the most sincerely dedicated soldiers of the Rebbe.
Shouldn't they be the most sincerely dedicated soldiers of G-d???
As far as they're concerned, they don't, because to them, the Rebbe IS almost like G-d, ch"v!
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Unread 05-06-2005, 05:47 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
The Rebbe stated clearly on Shoftim of 5751 that he and all of the Rebbeiim before him were all prophets (on a level similar to Moshe Rabbeinu, which is a separate category from other prophets in general as the Rambam explains there)
You're telling us that the Rebbe was more of a Navi than Yehoshua, Yechezkiel, Shmuel or Yeshayahu?

Excuse me?
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Unread 05-06-2005, 07:43 AM   #22
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Is this whole discussion (with all its distortions of the Rebbe's words - which anyway belong in a thread of its own (if anywhere)), supposed to solve the original problem? I think not - and is probably going to solve it in an unintended way...
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Unread 05-06-2005, 08:34 AM   #23
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Agreed, Torah613. The only thing we're doing is scaring the topic starter away from everything Lubavic.

Let's be peaceful. AB, forgive me my somewhat inflamed response, and let's just try to be friendly and cooperate on positive issues. We should all try to focus our energy toward positive things (talmud Torah, gemilut chassadim etc.) instead of attacking each other here on the internet.
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Unread 05-06-2005, 08:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
There happen to be many people who believe that the Rebbe zal zein guzunt is still (and eternally alive) - I also happen to be one of them.
Cute how you managed to say "shlita" without saying "shlita". Nebach.
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Unread 05-06-2005, 10:44 AM   #25
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okay aron did u mean that he physically is alive or just spiritually alive?

I agree, i will not go a moshechistic yeshiva undepended on whatever you say.
I heard that in moshechistic yeshivot, it is forbidden to ask question, weather the rebbe was moshiach or not.
But the question is, if there at all exist chabad-yeshivot which are not moshechistic in Israel or Europe.
All the speaking about bringing moshiach leds me to the question, why chabad demonstrate and have parades with "mitzvah-tanks" and so on, if the easist way to bring moshiach is to learn torah and to sit in the yeshiva.
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