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Unread 02-01-2002, 04:04 PM   #1
Jude
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did the Rebbe offer any guidelines or help regarding bachurim/men on mivtzaim/shlichus and their inevitably encountering not-tzniusly clad women? They can't do what other Chassidic men do which is not to talk directly to women. This just won't work on mivtzaim/shlichus!
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Unread 02-10-2002, 10:31 PM   #2
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"did the Rebbe offer any guidelines or help regarding bachurim/men on mivtzaim/shlichus and their inevitably encountering not-tzniusly clad women? They can't do what other Chassidic men do which is not to talk directly to women. This just won't work on mivtzaim/shlichus!"

Uh, hello? He absolutely did! Ever heard of the fact that men are supposed to do mivtzoim on men and women on women? "Avraham megayer es haanashim v'sara megayar es hanashim" (sorry if the exact wording's a bit off.) Girls are constantly admonished to be VERY careful about this--and they really are--but for some reason bochurim are lax on this.
There is a good reason, once again, that one's mashpia should be same gender as him/her.
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Unread 02-11-2002, 07:50 PM   #3
WanderingJew
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i just want to comment on what Jac said about shlichus challenges i.e. doing mivtzoim and dealing only with your own gender...Ideally you're right. But practically, any girl or bochur on shlichus inevitably comes in contact with lots of different people, and especially other young pple, guys and girls...To refuse to get involved with such pple bichlal is absurd,( for ex-working on a campus shlichus)...
because they see u as a junior shliach/shlucha-
and can usually gain a lot from ur concern and involvement in their lives.
There obviously are tznius issues involved, both for girls and bochurim, though, even if u play a "mashpia" role.
where do you think, does one draw the line here?
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Unread 02-11-2002, 09:33 PM   #4
ChachChach
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for a single person, the tznius problems are different than for married ppl.

as much as you feel that you're helping them, and perhaps you even are, you have to realize that everyone has a role in mivtzoyim. if no one else is around, then perhaps it would be okay for the bochur to go over and give out candle lighting brochures, but i dont think its very appropriate for him to remain in contact with the girl, invite her over to his house for shabbos and talk to her over the phone about becoming more involved....
the same is true for girls...

you have to realize-you cant sacrifice tznius for "a greater good."
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Unread 02-11-2002, 09:39 PM   #5
Jude
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Uh Hello to you too Jac! As WanderingJew pointed out quite correctly, bachurim/men constantly and inevitably, interact with women (and vice versa, women with men). It goes with the territory, even if you don't seek it out. And sometimes, you have to seek it out. In addition to tefillin, bachurim often/always have candles/candlesticks with them! When on mivtza mezuza, visiting homes, of course they interact with women! When running Kosher week in the supermarket, of course women interact with men! When bachurim visit offices and stores on Fridays, of course they encounter the secretaries and other women! When running Pesach sedarim around the world, of course women attend! And many more such examples abound.

Another issue: even when boys/men interact primarily with males, what about how to handle leaving the dalet amos of yeshiva for Manhattan or other areas, in which pritzus hits you in the face constantly. While travelling, one can (and most do) have Chitas, Rambam etc. to look into, but what about shemiras ha'einayim when looking into a sefer is not practical (like walking down the street!).

Last edited by Jude; 10-06-2002 at 11:27 AM.
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Unread 02-12-2002, 12:10 AM   #6
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You do what you can while on Mivtzoyim, and the Rebbe said specifically that he takes the rest on his shoulders.
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Unread 02-12-2002, 12:40 AM   #7
tzfas
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Bittul,
What is the source for those words?? And what do they mean??
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Unread 02-12-2002, 09:35 AM   #8
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I'm not so sure about what Bittul said. I am sure there are certain guide lines to what the Rebbe said. A bochurs job is not to mekarev girls. If you come across someone who needs some guidance than you can refer them to a shlucha or something like that.

Of course, mivtza neshek or a small thing like that is not a problem, but in general dealing with women and girls is more for married shluchim or for women!
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Unread 02-12-2002, 12:14 PM   #9
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A) The source: I don't know, but I'll try to find out. I beleive those exact words were in a Yechidus, but the general gist can be found in the different Sichos from when the Rebbe first instituted Mitzvah Tanks.

B) They mean that you take every care you can to avoid problems while on Mivtzoyim: Ask people to turn off televisions, try to see families while the men of the house are home, etc. But if you happen to walk in to a house when only the daughter is home, you would be extremely impolite to just ignore her! And similarly, you can't control what you see on the street. (Although if you wear glasses, you can try taking them off while walking in the street. Good luck ) Those things that are beyond your control, and if you don't go on Mivtzoyim you would never see (there is no reason for a Bochur to be in Manhattan, for example, other than Mivtzoyim), the Rebbe took responsibility for. No other group of Frume Yidden has ever allowed their boys and girls to do this, because none of them had the shoulders of the Rebbe to take on this responsibility.

C) As I said, yes, dealing with girls is not an issue for a Bochur, but to not answer a girl or woman who speaks to you or asks you a question would be extremely impolite. I was once stopped by a girl while in Yeshivah in Eretz Yisroel who wanted to know some reasons for Tznius (and, unfortunately, to ask why she had seen someone dressed up frum in not quite a tzniusdike situation). Should I have ignored her? I don't think so. I also made sure to answer her question politely and leave as soon as politely possible.
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Unread 02-12-2002, 06:23 PM   #10
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Okay, let me clarify. Firstly, there's a big difference between the mivtzoim and living on shlichus. Unless it's a situation where it would be impossible for u to ignore the opposite gender lest you be impolite, we are supposed to steer clear of the opposite gender. Yes, if you are stopped by s/one of the other gender, it would be rude to ignore him/her.
BUT generally speaking, the Rebbe DID set guidelines! He knew where he was sending us and yet he still set guidelines. I'm not judging every situation, many times (especially living on shluchus) there is no choice, I am talking about the general situation or when a bochur or girl goes on mivtzoim. Look here, I am not saying this from myself--believe me, I too have had an incredulous attitude at times towards this "policy" and have found it difficult to maintain. I actually do see the brilliance in it by now. I'm sure everyone can, in fact.
[Even if you are in a "mashpia" situation with the opposite gender, you are playing with fire, you would be (sadly) suprised to know of instances when it became more.]

As much as I hate to mention that other website, Frumteens, I remember reading something on there last year. A girl was writing about how she is mekaraving a male, and he explains that that is not her role. Another girl who is on shluchus on a campus asked how is she to maintain her shluchus, and he responded along the same lines: that at this point in her life it is not her job to become familiar with males, even if it is for the purpose of making them frum! In this case, he was totally on the mark.

"And sometimes, you have to seek it out." I don't know about that. There is a difference between seeking it out and happening to talk to a woman during Kosher Week and the like. Yes, I know that bochurim do interact with women on their routes, but most of them will try to keep it as short as possible. Interestingly enough, girls do not do routes partly b/c of this--the idea of them approaching male businessmen and managers is just not right. I don't understand, as I mentioned, why bochurim are more lax about it. Did the Rebbe not state the guidelines?! Yes, I know you've gotta be realistic and practical, and sometimes it is inevitable, but to do it regularly and generally?? Perhaps you can explain that.
Even on shluchos, when many complications arise with bochurim and girls both going to shluchim, girls are repeately taught that it is w-r-o-n-g and absolutely should not be done at all! So mivtzoim is not an excuse, not in any way.

About leaving the daled amos of yeshiva, the Rebbe did take that upon himself.

"As far as what you call "outdated comments" ..."
Sorry, but where did I write that? I forget. (Which thread did this post get transferred from anyway? A/one know? I'm losing my memory in my old age)

"what's "comps"?? computers?"
Sorry, I try to stay away from slang and unknown shorthand, but that's a natural one for me, when i'm rushing at least.
You guessed it, it's computers (or comp=computer).

Just as an aside: We know that interaction between opposing genders is so powerful that it is to be completely avoided [before marriage] etc., and how the Zohar explains that even a glance causes things to happen up there in heaven, right? So how can it be that we sacrifice this through mivtzoim? --as mentioned, the bochurim being in Manhatten, etc.

(Sorry if this sounds a little convoluted.)
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Unread 02-12-2002, 08:30 PM   #11
ChachChach
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i agree with jac... after a casual meeting, a girl shouldnt continue working with guys, and a bochur with girls (but married ppl might be different...) you shouldnt sacrifice "little details" for a greater good...thats not how we jews work
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Unread 02-13-2002, 01:34 PM   #12
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there is a difference btween being on mivtzoyim and living shlichus.

when on mivtzoyim its easier to use the approach of keeping it short, polite with the opposite gender etc... thats the way it should be.

but when in a shlichus situation, you are living with these people and they are often intrigued about your life and will ask tonss of questions, many times those that are slightly inapproapriate. its not smthing you ask for, it just happens. of course you try to deal with it in the most tzniusdike way possible, but alot of times these encounters are inevitable.

tznius makes us sensitive to these kind of things. but to someone who has no concept of tznius, their behaviour to them is 100% normal. just like shaking someones hand is purely platonic to them.

____________


while on this issue, ive got a question.
why is it considered not ok for an unmarried boy or girl to talk to the opposite gender but ok for a married person?
shouldnt it be worse for a married person?
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Unread 02-13-2002, 02:06 PM   #13
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For the same reason that Torah says a Melamed must be married, or else he might be alone with a married mother of a student. The temptation is removed when one has one's own wife. It's called "Pas Besalo" - when one has bread in the basket, even if he is very hungry, he is not as hungry, knowing that at any moment you can get the bread from the basket.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 02:06 PM   #14
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A few friends of mine were on Mivtzoim and a non Lubavitcher aproched them and started screaming at them, saying " how can they put tefiln on pepole under such pretzus" (he was refering to a bill board behind them) the bochrim gave him a blank look and told him that they don't know what he is talking about, and then replyed look behind u is that not peritzas?, they said to him that is the diffrence between us and you, you walk down this road once, and notice this bill board, we have been coming here for weeks and have self control and don't look at it!
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Unread 02-13-2002, 02:15 PM   #15
PeaceInIsrael
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bittul thanks for the explanation. it makes it a lil clearer but...
(always a but )
that explanation is good when the issue is holding back from crossing the line. a married person is definatly less temped but on the other hand if he does cross the line it is way worse.
a single might cross the line faster (not much holding them back) but....the result isnt as bad as that of a married person.

so i guess my question still remains.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 02:22 PM   #16
Jude
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both for married and single, the mishna in Avos applies "al tarbeh sicha im ha'isha, b'ishto umru, kal v'chomer b'eishes chaveiro" - don't talk excessively with a woman, if this is said regarding one's wife, all the more so with someone else's wife, etc.

Last edited by Jude; 02-13-2002 at 02:27 PM.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 02:43 PM   #17
ChachChach
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i'm sure shluchim come across this situation quite often...that's why they work as a team-the shliach works with men, and the shlucha works with women.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 05:01 PM   #18
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Well, I've been informed here on this forum (Early Marriage) that we don't necessarily apply the halacha of the mishana to our lives.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 05:18 PM   #19
Bittul
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Peace, we define the world according to Torah and Halachah, and what I described is how Torah sees it. All other theories must then be put aside.

And Al Tarbeh Sicha Im Haisha does not mean one cannot teach a woman, it means do not have idle conversations with a woman. Does that Mishnah mean a Rov should not explain at length a Halachah to a woman with a Shaalah? Nope.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 05:42 PM   #20
Jac
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Right, but we're not talking about Rabonim giving halachic answers.
The whole thing sounds strange, why shouldn't a man talk excessively with his wife? Why doesn't it say that a woman shouldnt' talk excessively with her husband?
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Unread 02-13-2002, 07:57 PM   #21
Jude
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the mishna goes on to explain at least one of the reasons - i.e. bittul Torah
perhaps check meforshim on that mishna

btw: about the comment about paskening according to the mishna, when yes, no
perhaps somebody with authority can start a thread on this. I find people have no idea how a halacha comes down l'maaseh, and operate under many misconceptions about this, as though ch'v, rabbanim make it up as they go
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Unread 02-13-2002, 10:37 PM   #22
ChilinInCali
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Jac, about not following the Mishna on early marriage, see what I wrote in the early marriage thread. "Al tarbe sicha im ho'ishah" is something which ALL Poiskim bring lahalacha.

Last edited by ChilinInCali; 02-13-2002 at 10:40 PM.
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Unread 02-13-2002, 11:19 PM   #23
Jac
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Thanks, ChillininCal, for that verification.

I actually am quite familiar with how Halacha evolved.

So it's bittul torah to talk to your wife? I'm trying to understand. (I understand that this reasoning also follows over to not speaking to anyone from the opposing gender before marriage, right?)

Also, why aren't these laws ever written the other way around, such as women shouldn't speak excessively to their husbands?

These halachos are so very interesting, though they've been around, and I've obviously been aware of them, for ages;-). So frustrating too, at times, to understand. (I don't mean the technical understanding of Halacha, that is quite simple here.)
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Unread 02-14-2002, 12:19 PM   #24
Jude
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Quote:
So it's bittul torah to talk to your wife?
Not necessarily. It's bittul Torah when it's bittul Torah, and not when they are talking about subjects they SHOULD be discussing for ex. Torah subjects, chinuch of their children, household necessities. Stam shooting the breeze may or may not be considered important. It depends on why.
I realize this sounds quite severe, but then again, the mitzva of Talmud Torah, "delve in it day and night" is pretty stringent.

Quote:
I understand that this reasoning also follows over to not speaking to anyone from the opposing gender before marriage, right?)
It's one reason. There are others.

The Gemara in Eruvin 53B tells the story of R' Yossi Ha'Glili who was on the road and asked Bruria "which road should we take to Lud?" She answered, "Glili shota (fool)! Didn't the chachamim say: al tarben sicha im ha'isha? You should have said, "Which to Lud?" [thanks Masbir for source]


Quote:
Also, why aren't these laws ever written the other way around, such as women shouldn't speak excessively to their husbands?
It's the man who risks sinning, and therefore the obligation devolves on him. Clearly, nobody should ever be the cause of someone else sinning, "don't put a stumbling block before the blind."

Last edited by Jude; 10-06-2002 at 11:33 AM.
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Unread 02-14-2002, 03:34 PM   #25
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The point is that there is no right or wrong answer to this. You have to set you boundaries and stick to them. As a bochur on shlichus in a real hicktown where the shliach was most of the time 'otherwise occupied' my friends and we set our boundaries. We occasionally call them and remind them to light Shabbos candles and so on, but we never invited them over to our apartment to the Shabbos meals that we used to make for other students. Having said that however, the girl who we were the 'closest' with made aliyah and went to university not sem. I am sure if we would have been more mashpia on her should would already be fully frum. But how far do you go? I think anyone with a head on his/her shoulders will realise what they are doing 'lishmo' and what they are doing for ulterior motives, and when you are no longer doing things 'lishmo' you have to draw the line.
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