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Unread 11-04-2003, 05:21 PM   #1
stamayid
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
Stam: how do you anticipate Moshiach's coming every day? sounds like you think it's gonna take eons
Lo zochu - be'itoh.

Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day. Every day I anticipate his arrival, whenever it will be (bb"a).
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Unread 11-04-2003, 05:33 PM   #2
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stam: do you think Moshiach will come in your lifetime?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 05:35 PM   #3
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<<<<<<Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day. Every day I anticipate his arrival, whenever it will be (bb"a).>>>>

isnt there something wrong with that?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 07:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by stamayid


Besides which, I do not believe that Moshiach can come every day.
Why can't he come every day?
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:03 PM   #5
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(In connection to the earlier posts on this thread.) Did any of you ever hear a sicha relating to the idea that there will not be any more chevlei moshiach?!
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:09 PM   #6
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Maybe you mean 15 Shvat 5739 where he brings the Mitteler Rebbe in Sharei Tshuva p 5b.
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:14 PM   #7
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Stam. You brought up a very thoughtful way of understanding the ani ma'min. The Rebbe adressed it many times, as can easily be seen in the collection in the sefer sha'arei geula. If I recall correctly, the Rebbe also brings down the Rambam in Hilchos Melech Hamoshiach, more commonly known as hilchos milochim, that the mitzva is, in addition to believing in the general idea of moshiach, that will come at some point in time, one has to be mitzapeh to his coming and whoever dosen't do both, continues the Rambam is a kofer . . . I just remembered also, that the Rebbe bring down that we ask for Moshiach and the Beis Hamikdosh 3 times daily in Shemoneh Esreh, on Shabbos 4, which in context of the other berachos (for example refuah shleima) is for now, not whenever Hashem will want.
In tht sefer, can be found also a collection regarding b'etah, and zacho. "ayin sham".
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:16 PM   #8
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Torah613: Thanks for the reference. Could you relate the idea that is expressed there?
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Unread 11-05-2003, 05:21 AM   #9
RebMoshe
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl

Why can't he come every day?
I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 05:59 AM   #10
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I believe that the answer given to that is something like, "Eliyahu Hanavi will answer all of our questions. So he should come Erev Shabbos, and he'll just have one more question to answer..."
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by hishtatchus
I believe that the answer given to that is something like, "Eliyahu Hanavi will answer all of our questions. So he should come Erev Shabbos, and he'll just have one more question to answer..."
Great attitude. I could say, nu, why can't a woman be Moshiach? When she comes she will answer all your questions. Or even better, why can't Yoshke be Moshiach? Don't bother me with kashyas. When he comes he will answer all of your questions.

Our religion doesn't work that way.

See Eiruvin 43b
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
stam: do you think Moshiach will come in your lifetime?
How should I know? I can only hope and wait.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl
Why can't he come every day?
According to R' Yehoshua, the Geuloh will be in Nissan. According to R' Eliezer it will be in Tishrei. That means that according to R' Yehoshua, Moshiach will come in Nissan and not the other 11 months of the year. And according to R' Eliezer only in Tishrei and not in the other eleven months of the year.

There are other similar statements in Chazal, not least of which is that Eliyohu will not come on erev Shabbos and erev Yom Tov.

See the second paragraph in this letter where R' Yehuda Henkin says pretty much the same thing. I know, he's a bit weird on certain issues. But I think he has a good point here, which he makes in a much stronger way in the ma'amar he refers to.

(Addition: I reread the letter and he says it in the name of his grandfather, R' Yosef Eliyohu Henkin)
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos.
\

Chill out Stam...it isn't in front of me or where I have a copy but the Chasam Sofer answers ina TEshuvah how Moshiach can come on Shabbas....
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebMoshe


I seem to recall a view that Eliyahu HaNavi can't come erev Shabbos.
See:
http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=40

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgs...ilIF=G&ilSC=30
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:36 AM   #16
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Torah613,

That sounds like what I am saying, no?
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:51 AM   #17
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Stam: I didn't ask whether you know (did you think I thought you had inside information?). I asked whether you thought Moshiach would come in your lifetime, whether you anticipate this happening, whether you expect it to happen.

and yes, you could say why can't a woman be Moshiach and why can't Yoshke be Moshiach, but that would be idiotic since halacha says they can't.

Tell me, do you (or those who) recite the Ani Maamins daily, skip saying it on erev Shabbos? I can tell you that we recited it in school on erev Shabbos. Why say it on erev Shabbos and erev YomTov if we are not mechake lo to show up that day?

Can someone choose to recite the Ani Maamins only in Nissan/Tishrei (someone who includes Ani Maamins in his nusach ha'tefilla), since Moshiach won't be showing up any other time?

And what does achake lo b'chol yom sh'yavo mean if, according to the quotes you posted, he won't be showing up on MOST days of the year?
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Unread 11-05-2003, 11:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
I didn't ask whether you know (did you think I thought you had inside information?). I asked whether you thought Moshiach would come in your lifetime, whether you anticipate this happening, whether you expect it to happen.
These are different things. I cannot think that Moshiach will come in my lifetime or expect it if I don't know whether or not he will. I can hope. I can prepare for the possibility. I can anxiously wait.

Quote:
Tell me, do you (or those who) recite the Ani Maamins daily, skip saying it on erev Shabbos?
Exactly my point. Every day I believe that Moshiach will come.

Besides which, I don't say the Ani Maamins. I don't know who wrote them but they were poorly written. There are big differences between the Ani Maamins and what Rambam's actual 13 Ikkorim.

Quote:
And what does achake lo b'chol yom sh'yavo mean if, according to the quotes you posted, he won't be showing up on MOST days of the year?
Every you day you wait for the time that Moshiach will come. I don't have a good moshol for this handy but I'm sure someone can come up with a good story that demonstrates this.

Consider a kalloh. Every day she looks forward to her wedding, thinks about it, plans for it, envisions it. She knows that it won't happen on any given day but she still waits for it anxiously.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 12:05 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by stamayid
Consider a kalloh. Every day she looks forward to her wedding, thinks about it, plans for it, envisions it. She knows that it won't happen on any given day but she still waits for it anxiously.
That's exactly the sort of attitude the Rebbeim labored to overcome.


Quote:
..."the battle of the House of David," whose task is to strengthen our people's faith in the Messianic Redemption and to ease its birthpangs.

There are two levels of evil found in the time of "the footsteps of Mashiach." One category comprises "the enemies of G-d," the veteran apikorsim and maskilim....

The other category -- of those who "have abused ... the footsteps of Your Mashiach" -- comprises all kinds of people; in fact, it even includes quite reputable Torah scholars, whose faith in the imminent Redemption is nevertheless weak. They may well rationalize their beliefs with explanations ostensibly based on the fear of heaven. The final word, however, is that their faith in Mashiach's coming is weak.

www.Yiddishkeit.org/Default.asp?ItemCode=377
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Unread 11-05-2003, 12:34 PM   #20
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Yesterday, did you know that Moshiach would come on that day? Did you think that he would? Did you expect that he would? Or did you hope that he would?
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Unread 11-05-2003, 12:43 PM   #21
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Stam, dont you know that he came already (and left?)
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Unread 11-05-2003, 12:49 PM   #22
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the kalla mashal is inadequate since she knows the date of her wedding

to answer the questions in your most recent post - I heard a speaker describe the thought processes of the wife of an American hostage being held in Lebanon, as she described it. She said that at the end of every day of his captivity she was so disappointed that he hadn't been released that day. She had anticipated that it would happen, but it hadn't. The speaker used this gentile's expectation of her husband's imminent release as a mashal for how WE are supposed to anticipate Moshiach's coming.

It's not that we KNOW that Moshiach is coming today, but we (should) think that not only he might come, but he will come today, and if, by the time we go to sleep he hasn't come, we should be truly disappointed, as disappointed as you would be if you were counting on company showing up and you prepared for them and were looking out the window for them, and they surprisingly, did not show up.

Anything less than this, anything less than the expectation level of the hostage's wife, shows - to some degree or another - that:

a) we don't really care that he didn't show up today, after all - there's always tomorrow so big deal .. (and the Rebbe described this attitude and said that alas, his own Chasidim had it - 28 Nisan 5751, al achas kama v'kama a non-Chasid)

b) we don't believe he will ever come
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Unread 11-05-2003, 01:02 PM   #23
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Dissapointment is a different issue, it has to do with "Mechake LeViato".
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Unread 11-05-2003, 01:04 PM   #24
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what about the case where the kalla is not yet met her shidduch... she longs for her chuppah nonetheless...
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Unread 11-05-2003, 01:17 PM   #25
Jude
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the definition of disappointment is the feeling you have when expectations or wishes are not met

if a person does not feel disappointed at day's end when Moshiach has not come, it's because he didn't expect him to come, nor did he truly wish that he came that day

a boy or girl (kalla?!) who hasn't yet met the person they become engaged to and marry, and who wants to marry - yes, that's a good mashal

and if they blithely go their merry way, working, learning, dating, whatever ... and don't rue the day (and years) when they should have been married, then it shows a great ambivalence on their part about marriage
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