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Unread 11-09-2008, 03:43 PM   #1
existwhere?
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The Animal Soul Of the Realm Of Klipa In the Left Part of the Heart

כי בחינת החכמה שבנפש האלקית, עם ניצו׳ אלקות מאור אין סוף ברוך הוא המלובש בה
For the faculty of Chochmah in the divine soul, with the spark of G‑dliness from the light of the blessed Ein Sof that is clothed in it,
הם בבחינת גלות בגופם, בנפש הבהמית מצד הקליפה שבחלל השמאלי שבלב, המולכת ומושלת בגופם
are in a state of exile in their body, within the animal soul of the realm of kelipah in the left part of the heart, which reigns over them and dominates their body.
Lessons in Tanya Chapter 18

Why does he keep on repeating this phrase? Is there an animal soul not in the realm of klipa in the right part of the heart?
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Unread 11-09-2008, 05:11 PM   #2
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Why the Alter Rebbe repeats certain things is anyone's guess. A better question is: biologically, what is the meaning of the left and right side of the heart?
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Unread 11-09-2008, 05:38 PM   #3
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The biological explanation to left and right side of the heart is readily explained and I have had it explained to me by a physician on more than one occasion. The left side of the heart is empty of blood (its the vacuum that sucks in blood from the body). The right side of the heart is full of blood and pumps it to the rest of the body. It fits in very well the AlteRebbe's moshol in the early chapters of Tanya.

I think that the style of writing in many of the Rebbeim's works is to repeat fairly long phrases to remove ambiguity. For example, the Rebbe might have a whole sentence explaining that "Because XYZ, A is really B which is really C" and then two sentences later will say the entire phrase again by saying "And this that because XYZ, A is really B which is really C, is because of D" So you get this sort of long winded sentence and you wonder why the Rebbe didn't just say "And all of this is because of D." Near as I can tell, it is simply a style in the writing that keeps things clear (if repetitive at first glance).

There is no animal soul in the right part of the heart. The animal soul resides in the realm of klipah which is the left part of the heart. But just saying "the animal soul" would keep all of that information just as true.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 06:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Why the Alter Rebbe repeats certain things is anyone's guess.
I am shocked to hear a Lubavitcher say that. You mean to say that you don't feel that you must delve to the depths of everything your Rebbe said? Certainly he didn't want you to shrug your shoulders and say, "Who cares why he repeated himself?" He wanted you to think deeply into what he was saying and understand his hidden meanings, lighting up other areas of Torah.
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A better question is: biologically, what is the meaning of the left and right side of the heart?
The left takes in all the used blood, the right sends it to the lungs for oxygenation.
eta: oh, MTC said that.
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
The biological explanation to left and right side of the heart is readily explained and I have had it explained to me by a physician on more than one occasion. The left side of the heart is empty of blood (its the vacuum that sucks in blood from the body). The right side of the heart is full of blood and pumps it to the rest of the body. It fits in very well the AlteRebbe's moshol in the early chapters of Tanya.

I think that the style of writing in many of the Rebbeim's works is to repeat fairly long phrases to remove ambiguity. For example, the Rebbe might have a whole sentence explaining that "Because XYZ, A is really B which is really C" and then two sentences later will say the entire phrase again by saying "And this that because XYZ, A is really B which is really C, is because of D" So you get this sort of long winded sentence and you wonder why the Rebbe didn't just say "And all of this is because of D." Near as I can tell, it is simply a style in the writing that keeps things clear (if repetitive at first glance).

There is no animal soul in the right part of the heart. The animal soul resides in the realm of klipah which is the left part of the heart. But just saying "the animal soul" would keep all of that information just as true.
OK, thanks.
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Unread 11-09-2008, 10:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
I am shocked to hear a Lubavitcher say that. You mean to say that you don't feel that you must delve to the depths of everything your Rebbe said? Certainly he didn't want you to shrug your shoulders and say, "Who cares why he repeated himself?" He wanted you to think deeply into what he was saying and understand his hidden meanings, lighting up other areas of Torah.
I am sorry; I wasn't clear. I certainly didn't mean anything but tachlis ha'kovod for Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabeinu the Alter Rebbe, Rabeinu HaGodol, she'mipiv onu shosim.

I have been learning Tanya in depth for a number of years, and have come across many such apparent repetitions. I definitely didn't mean to say that I wouldn't like to know why the Alter Rebbe repeats certain phrases. I would very much like to. However, I am wary of speculating when it comes to such lofty matters, and coming up with what is known as "boich sevoros." I.e., only a Rebbe can really know what the Alter Rebbe really meant with such things. If none of the Rebbe'im revealed it to us from above, then any explanation someone has is just the guesswork of his coarse sechel anushi, which is infinitely far from what the Tanya is. Not that he can't suggest an explanation, let him write a ha'oro gezunterheit, but that for me that explanation doesn't have much credence. Even Reb Shmuel Groinem suggested all sorts of explanations in Tanya that the Rebbe clearly didn't accept. V'anan mah naneh a'basrei.

In other words: if you want to suggest a reason bederech efsher that is probably wrong, fine. But if you want the emes, you need a Rebbe; only a Rebbe can reveal such a thing.

See also Kuntres Hatefillah here and here.

Especially when it comes to Tanya, about which there is a known tradition that we don't say explanation of our own (except when it helps in avoida). It's also known that the Alter Rebbe was medayeik in every vov in Tanya--are we going to start speculating about that as well? (What about darshening from the tagim of chumash tilei tilim shel halochos?)

If we stick to the biu'rim of Raboseinu Nesi’einu, we have our work cut out for us.
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Unread 11-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #6
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In other words: if you want to suggest a reason bederech efsher that is probably wrong, fine. But if you want the emes, you need a Rebbe; only a Rebbe can reveal such a thing.
You're right. I will never go to another shiur that does not involve someone standing at the front of the room reading verbatim from one of the Rebbeim. And then, only if it is an edited source - unedited sources are only recorded bederech efshar and probably wrong anyway.

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there is a known tradition that we don't say explanation of our own (except when it helps in avoida)
I haven't heard that one before, but I did hear that there is a known tradition that 86% of statistics are made up on the spot, but that they are still okay to cite if they help in avodah.
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Unread 11-10-2008, 07:03 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I am sorry; I wasn't clear. I certainly didn't mean anything but tachlis ha'kovod for Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabeinu the Alter Rebbe, Rabeinu HaGodol, she'mipiv onu shosim.

I have been learning Tanya in depth for a number of years, and have come across many such apparent repetitions. I definitely didn't mean to say that I wouldn't like to know why the Alter Rebbe repeats certain phrases. I would very much like to. However, I am wary of speculating when it comes to such lofty matters, and coming up with what is known as "boich sevoros." I.e., only a Rebbe can really know what the Alter Rebbe really meant with such things. If none of the Rebbe'im revealed it to us from above, then any explanation someone has is just the guesswork of his coarse sechel anushi, which is infinitely far from what the Tanya is. Not that he can't suggest an explanation, let him write a ha'oro gezunterheit, but that for me that explanation doesn't have much credence. Even Reb Shmuel Groinem suggested all sorts of explanations in Tanya that the Rebbe clearly didn't accept. V'anan mah naneh a'basrei.

In other words: if you want to suggest a reason bederech efsher that is probably wrong, fine. But if you want the emes, you need a Rebbe; only a Rebbe can reveal such a thing.

See also Kuntres Hatefillah here and here.

Especially when it comes to Tanya, about which there is a known tradition that we don't say explanation of our own (except when it helps in avoida). It's also known that the Alter Rebbe was medayeik in every vov in Tanya--are we going to start speculating about that as well? (What about darshening from the tagim of chumash tilei tilim shel halochos?)

If we stick to the biu'rim of Raboseinu Nesi’einu, we have our work cut out for us.
Thank you for responding. I wasn't completely serious but was indeed surprised, considering the emphasis placed by Chabad on "Chassidus" vs. "Pshat". (For example, in the "Mei'eimasai Korin Shma" Reb Zushe story.)
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Originally Posted by MahTovChelkeinu View Post
You're right. I will never go to another shiur that does not involve someone standing at the front of the room reading verbatim from one of the Rebbeim. And then, only if it is an edited source - unedited sources are only recorded bederech efshar and probably wrong anyway.


I haven't heard that one before, but I did hear that there is a known tradition that 86% of statistics are made up on the spot, but that they are still okay to cite if they help in avodah.
:grin:
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Unread 11-11-2008, 01:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by existwhere? View Post
Thank you for responding. I wasn't completely serious but was indeed surprised, considering the emphasis placed by Chabad on "Chassidus" vs. "Pshat". (For example, in the "Mei'eimasai Korin Shma" Reb Zushe story.)
Now it's your turn to explain; I'm not sure what you mean.
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You're right. I will never go to another shiur that does not involve someone standing at the front of the room reading verbatim from one of the Rebbeim.
Did you look at the reference to Kuntres Hatefilla?
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I haven't heard that one before
The Rebbe mentioned it on several occasions.
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Unread 11-11-2008, 08:01 PM   #9
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Now it's your turn to explain; I'm not sure what you mean.
I recall reading somehting about Reb Zushe trying to learn mishnayos without Chassidus, and he read it as "mei'eimasai" "with fear and trembling".
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Unread 11-12-2008, 03:13 AM   #10
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I think you're confusing at least one story. Sorry.
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Unread 11-12-2008, 06:48 PM   #11
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The Kuntres HaTefillah portion you cited is a very specific case. The Rebbe Rashab is saying that we should not meditate on chiddushim that we come up with on the spot before davening. We need to take ideas that we can be sure are correct (which could be because of a source or because of independant research) and internalize them, and use those ideas as a basis for our tefillah.

This is not what you said. And, as proven by our argument, the fact that I read something in a sefer written by one of the Rebbeim does not mean I understand it the way you do. My own understanding of the text could be flawed... so the best thing to do is give yourself some time to realize any errors. Once an idea has floated around for awhile without any refutation, you increase your chances that it is true (although there are no guarantees).
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Unread 11-12-2008, 11:17 PM   #12
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The Rebbe Rashab denigrates the chiddushim in Chassidus of anyone but those who are extremely learned, and says that they are probably not true, and that therefore they should not be used for hisbonenus. I agree that I didn't say exactly the same thing, but what I said was along those lines: that when we are dealing with such high inyonim, our own suggested explanations aren't worth much. Not that there's anything wrong with suggesting them as part of limmud, but let's not get our hopes up that we were mechavein to the emes.

And indeed, one needs to be wary who he learns from.
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Unread 11-13-2008, 03:08 AM   #13
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I would venture to add that not only does the Rasha"b denigrate their chiddushim, but he tells us that if one seems to always be thinking of chiddushim, he should reevaluate his level in avoda, as he obviously thinks that he is on a higher level than he actually is(!!!). Or at least, that's how I understood the kuntres. (Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not trying to make a chiddush...)

On second thought, I, of all people should not have posted this....
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