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Unread 04-01-2005, 01:45 AM   #1
Aharon Benjamin
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Key What happened to the Rebbe's prophecy?

B"H


On Parshas Shoftim 5751 the Rebbe stood up in 770 and announced that we have the following instruction, we are to publicize to all people of the generation that HaShem has chosen a select individual to be the judge councelor and prophet of the generation, and that his main prophecy is "laltar legeulah" and that all people have both the priviledge and the obligation to publicize and accept the implications of this message upon themselves and until all people that they are able to reach.

As the Rambam explains in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 7-10, and also in his intro to pirush HaMishnaos sec.2 - all are obligated to obey a navi emes - and furthermore his prophecy must come to pass.

My question is therefore twofold:

1. What has happened to our obligation to publicize this message?
2. What has happened to HaShem's obligation, kiviyachol to fullfill a positive prophecy from a Navi Emes?

Where is the Geula Shleimah? How was or is this prophecy being fulfilled?
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Unread 04-01-2005, 02:06 AM   #2
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Unread 04-01-2005, 08:28 AM   #3
Torah613
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To avoid redundancy, you might want to look here:

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=49820

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=826

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2734

Just to point out: The question as formulated, leaves 3 possibilities...
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Unread 04-01-2005, 01:39 PM   #4
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I just would like to understand the question: A prophecy usually has a time when it is meant to be fulfilled. How do you know that the time for the fulfillment arrived already (which - come to think of it - actually is a 4th possibility...)?
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Unread 04-02-2005, 09:42 PM   #5
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Laltar = immediately

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I just would like to understand the question: A prophecy usually has a time when it is meant to be fulfilled. How do you know that the time for the fulfillment arrived already (which - come to think of it - actually is a 4th possibility...)?
As far as I know the meaning of "laltar" is immediately, especially when the Rebbe also said atleast hundreds of time "techef umiad mamash" etc.

When I asked my mashpia about this issue, he told me that when the Rebbe made this prophecy that the revelation of the geulah shleima did begin within the world in the place where this prophecy was said, and that every person who hears this prophecy and begins to live with it and its implications experiences the blessing of the geulah shleimah in thier life - when the entire world will receive this prophecy and live with its implications then the geulah shleima will become manifest throughout the world.

My question was, why should the actualization of this prophecy be contingent on its publication and acceptance by the people - but it would seem according to what my mashpia holds that this is the case, and when I went over the sicha again, it seems to me that this could in fact fit with the lashon imho.

So according to this explanation we are currently holding the "cheque" of the geulah shleima so to speak and all we have to really do is cash it in.
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Unread 04-02-2005, 09:43 PM   #6
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4 possibilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I just would like to understand the question: A prophecy usually has a time when it is meant to be fulfilled. How do you know that the time for the fulfillment arrived already (which - come to think of it - actually is a 4th possibility...)?
By the way, what are your 4 possibilities?
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Unread 04-02-2005, 10:13 PM   #7
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A fine example of double (or triple) speak on the part of your mashpia...
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Unread 04-03-2005, 12:55 PM   #8
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Last time I checked the full Nevuah was "Lealter LeTeshuvah, Lealter Legeulah."

Which means that we should immediately do Teshuvah, and Moshiach will arrive immediately.

So the moment everyone does Teshuvah the check will be cashed.
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Unread 04-03-2005, 04:27 PM   #9
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Time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bittul
Last time I checked the full Nevuah was "Lealter LeTeshuvah, Lealter Legeulah."

Which means that we should immediately do Teshuvah, and Moshiach will arrive immediately.

So the moment everyone does Teshuvah the check will be cashed.
Bittul, no offence but I think that the last time that you checked was about 50 years ago. LeAltar Leteshuva etc. was the call of the Freiddecher Rebbe in the 1940s before our Rebbe ever became Rebbe.

I have somthing else that I want to share with anyone who may not have heard this - and rather than start another thread...

On the Rebbe ***'s 33rd birthday (1935) - his father zatzal, sent a letter to his son (printed in Likutei Levi Itzchak) in which he wrote when the Jewish people are saying kapital 103 in the Tehillim (according to our count 104) there will be the downfall of wickedness throughout the world - (as the kapital 104 ends "yitamu chataiim min haaretz ve reshaiim od ainam, barchi nafshi es HaShem ...") As you know - we will begin saying this kapital for the Rebbe Shlita in approximately 18 days from now.

Last edited by Aharon Benjamin; 04-03-2005 at 04:31 PM.
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Unread 04-03-2005, 04:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
A fine example of double (or triple) speak on the part of your mashpia...
I actually think that what he said makes some sense, but if you mean that HaShem should just redeem us immediately regardless - then I will agree with you on that.
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Unread 04-03-2005, 06:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
On the Rebbe 33rd birthday (1935) - his father zatzal, sent a letter to his son (printed in Likutei Levi Itzchak) in which he wrote when the Jewish people are saying kapital 103 in the Tehillim (according to our count 104) there will be the downfall of wickedness throughout the world - (as the kapital 104 ends "yitamu chataiim min haaretz ve reshaiim od ainam, barchi nafshi es HaShem ...") As you know - we will begin saying this kapital for the Rebbe in approximately 18 days from now.
Moshe Yess' "torahs" (term used loosely - obviously). IOW, pure baloney...
Is this also considered "nevuah"?
[For those who want to see the distortion for themselves, see Igros LY the bottom of p 324].

Last edited by Torah613; 04-04-2005 at 09:54 AM.
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Unread 04-03-2005, 07:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aharon Benjamin
I actually think that what he said makes some sense, but if you mean that HaShem should just redeem us immediately regardless - then I will agree with you on that.
Makes no sense at all leshitosom...
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Unread 04-03-2005, 08:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Moshe Yess' "torahs" (term used loosely - obviously). IOW, pure baloney...
What exactly is baloney? The quote? The fact that we're about to say kapitel 104?

I haven't seen the likkutei levy"tz recently (it was going around in the begining of the year), but IIRC it's basically a gemoro in brochos (I don't know if you're up to there yet in daf yomi).
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Unread 04-03-2005, 08:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
"Rabbi Yehuda ben Rabbi Shimon ben Pazi said, "Dovid (hamelech) said (wrote) 103 chapters of Tehillim and he did not say "Halleluka" until he saw the downfall of the wicked, as it says, "Let sinners cease out of the earth (i.e., let the spirit of impurity pass away) and let the wicked be no more. Bless the L-rd, o my soul, Hallelukah"

The gemarrah continues, "Now these are 103? Are they not 104? You must assume therefore that "Happy is the man" (Psalms 1 )and "Why are the nations in an uproar" (Psalm 2) form one psalm."
That's the gemora in Brochos. What is the chiddush printed in Likkutei Levi Yitzchak?
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Unread 04-03-2005, 09:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
What exactly is baloney? The quote? The fact that we're about to say kapitel 104?

I haven't seen the likkutei levy"tz recently (it was going around in the begining of the year), but IIRC it's basically a gemoro in brochos (I don't know if you're up to there yet in daf yomi).
Compare what was quoted ("in which he wrote when the Jewish people are saying kapital 103 in the Tehillim") with what it says there and you'll see for yourself (unless you are deliberately acting obtuse).
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Unread 04-03-2005, 09:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Compare what was quoted ("in which he wrote when the Jewish people are saying kapital 103 in the Tehillim") with what it says there and you'll see for yourself (unless you are deliberately acting obtuse).
Not everyone has the full library at their fingertips...would it be a terrible hardship to post a scan or translation or transliteration?
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Unread 04-03-2005, 10:13 PM   #17
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I don't have a scanner (want to chip in? ), and I can't translate Kabolo. Here is his loshon:
והכפל דאושר, באשרי כי אשרוני, יובן עפמ"ש במ"א בענין הב"פ אשרנו, אשרנו מה טוב חלקנו כו' אשרינו שאנו משכימים כו', וכן כל פרשה שהיתה חביבה על דוד פתח באשרי וסיים באשרי, ומזה נעשה תועלת שמפלתן של רשעים נעשה בסוף ק"ג מזמורים ואינו נצרך לק"ד, בכדי שישאר מספר או"ר מהש"י עלמין בסט' דימינא כמ"ש בזהר פ' תרומה.
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Unread 04-03-2005, 10:16 PM   #18
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Actually I'm naturally obtuse

But I wasn't paying attention to the precise wording, I think the point is the idea, - that 104 is connected with the ultimate downfall of the wicked, this is what it says in the gemoroh, and (I'll bli"n check it up tomorrow unless you post it, but) IIRC that's the gist of the Rebbe's father's letter. With all due respect etc.: vos farginst du nisht az yidden zolen nemen fun dem a hisorerus about the geulah in connection with the upcoming י"א ניסן?

And Yankel be careful, lest you be suspected of learning daf yomi .
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Unread 04-03-2005, 10:17 PM   #19
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WOW
טרם יקראו ואני אענה
Thanks!
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Unread 04-03-2005, 10:23 PM   #20
Torah613
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Nu wannabe, try this:
"...עשו שנקרא הראשון המשעבד דאותנו והקב"ה ידין אותו ויכרית זכרו וכדאמרינן בפ"ק דר"ה י"א בניסן נגאלו ובניסן עתידין להגאל".
Also bring to hisorerus....
Farvos fargin ich nisht? ווייל דאס איז אלץ נערישקייטען...
[Whom are you thanking?]
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Unread 04-03-2005, 11:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
And Yankel be careful, lest you be suspected of learning daf yomi
I was very careful to make it clear in a post in another thread that I occassionall overhear the daf Yomi shiur that takes place while I am putting on Rabbeinu Tam. Not that I listen, ch'v, but sometimes they get a little lively and loud and I get distracted from Tanya b'al peh and... ...well, you get the picture I'm sure.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 06:47 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Nu wannabe, try this:
"...עשו שנקרא הראשון המשעבד דאותנו והקב"ה ידין אותו ויכרית זכרו וכדאמרינן בפ"ק דר"ה י"א בניסן נגאלו ובניסן עתידין להגאל".
Also bring to hisorerus....
One is a pure distortion and completely out of context. The other isn't, IOW there actually is a a connection between 104 (in tehillim) and the ultimate downfall of reshaim (whether or not one chooses to connect that with the 104th year of the Rebbe). Your only complaint could be against AB's wording as if it is explicitly written about 5765. But the hisorerus in this case is not a migdal hapoireach (even though - NO, it's not a nevuah or anything near that).
Quote:
[Whom are you thanking?]
you, I asked for the lashon, and by the time I finished asking it was already there!
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Unread 04-04-2005, 07:20 AM   #23
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What exactly is added by the letter that isn't in the Gemoro (besides the kabolo), if not to build up some hype? For every kapital you can find a Gemoro or Midrash about something (similar to Dubov's book on Parshiyos)... therefore? [Actually a symptom of a common problem by us... VAKML].
Nu, to each their own.

Last edited by Torah613; 04-04-2005 at 07:27 AM.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 09:45 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
What exactly is added by the letter that isn't in the Gemoro (besides the kabolo)
I asked that question a long time ago (to some of the people who were publicizing it), and I already said in my first post that IMHO it's basically a gemoro. So what, that doesn't make it baloney or נערישקייט ch"v.

In the worst case some chassidim know gemoro from likutei levi"y (not everyone has the opportunity to "overhear" daf yomi shiurim like yankel ), but the point is still the same.

[BTW - I think you'll enjoy the following story if you never heard it (I never saw it printed anywhere, I heard it from a chosid):

The Rogatchover once wrote a letter to Zevin in which he wrote a whole biur based on the fact that in a certain possuk a certain word was written with a vav.

So Zevin wrote to him: "ספר קטן יש לנו, וחומש שמו, ושם כתוב בלא ויו", so the Rogatchover wrote back to him that he's right and it was a mistake, but that the reason for the mistake was because he remembered the possuk from rambam, and the rambam writes it with a vav]

Quote:
For every kapital you can find a Gemoro or Midrash about something (similar to Dubov's book on Parshiyos)... therefore?
I'm not familiar with Dubov's book, but isn't that a correct approach, and one that the Rebbe showed us. The best example is the roshei teivos of the years that the Rebbe showed such a koch in since mem beis, you could say 'you could find a roshei teivos for any year'. ein hochi nami, we could, and every year we should find it and get excited about it (I don't think you'll suggest that that was purely a Rebbeshe inyan?)

Quote:
[Actually a symptom of a common problem by us... VAKML].
דהיינו?
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Unread 04-04-2005, 10:07 AM   #25
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1) My original expression "baloney" was on the phrasing of the original post, keposhut.
2) The nareshkeit is pulling a LLY into the mix, with the stress that this Gemoro was actually mentioned in a letter to the Rebbe...so what?
3) Those "Chassidim" that only know a Gemoro from LLY shouldn't be commenting on Gemoro (or on anything else ...).
4) The story with the Rogatchover is known (IIRC the Rebbe once said something along those lines...) - but soon there will be those that will be saying "tzimtzum kepshotu" based on this story, and prove that the R never opened up a Chumush, and therefore etc.
5) The comparison to the Rebbe's hanhogo is obviously out of place. The Rebbe's hanhogo was the way the inyonim are metzad milmalo etc etc, these fellows are just trying to push agendas, uposhut.
6) דהיינו, the abbysmal ignorance of our mechunachim of anything of Torah and yiddishkeit that they didn't happen to stumble over in LS (if if they were lucky - a maamer of the FR...), and based on their limited knowledge, will darshen in hashkofas hayahadus and ikrei emunah כאדם העושה בתוך שלו. VAKML...
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